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Wielder of the Baratheon BANHAMMER
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The Winds Of Winter ( Book Spoilers )
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Discussion of book 6 in ASOIAF series, plot speculation, character acs are all welcome!

Please place any details from the preview chapters in spoiler brackets.

-- Edited by DonalNoyesArm on Wednesday 22nd of August 2012 11:55:07 AM

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I loved "A Dance With Dragons" it picked up the pace and charaters from the previous book installments. Only bummer is that the book had, what, 3 cliffhangers? 

The book ends just as Stannis is getting ready to attack Winterfell, the war breaks out in Meereen and Jon lies dying.

I just hope these get solved quickly as I can't bear any more beating by the bush. "Winter is coming"? Well, winter is here. 

As the good ser's at Monty Python would say:



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Has anyone ever thought that Jon Snow is also a Baratheon bastard stolen away by Ned for safety? Yes, a woman knows of the speculation that JS is son of Lyanna and Raegar, therefore a TargStark, but couldn't he be a Bartheon byblow taken away by Ned to save his King/friend's marriage?. Just thinking. And there's no way JS is dead. Just no way.



-- Edited by MrsHghar on Saturday 18th of August 2012 06:21:43 PM

-- Edited by DonalNoyesArm on Saturday 18th of August 2012 06:31:05 PM

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Wielder of the Baratheon BANHAMMER
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There are many Jon Snow theories, and that certainly is one of em. But I don't think Ned ever dealt with Roberts bastards before, that is why it took him so long to figure the whole incest thing at Kings Landing.

Oh and no need for spoiler tags here, be free!

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Ugh, I'll take just about ANY theory that isn't R+L=J right now. pray Though, let's face it, the chances are very slim, seing how this was alluded to starting with Book 1, and this was at the time GRRM still envisioned the series as a trilogy. Now, if GRRM stays true to the story he first intended to tell, we should look mainly for clues that appear in AGoT. I personally wouldn't mind for him to pull up a new trick, if he happens to have another one up his sleeve and if he still manages to make it believable. For example, I've read many theories but I still haven't found one I'm satisfied with re: Arthur Dayne and his involvement in that whole ToJ business. I'm not saying that he might be a candidate for Jon's parentage, I was just giving an example of yet another piece of the puzzle that doesn't quite fit. 

And while I don't think Jon could be a Baratheon bastard, MrsHghar, this was actually the first theory my partner came up with while watching the show (he's a non reader). :) So yeah, you're not alone in this. 



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I think because Kit has almost black hair it is misleading for viewers only... and the whole" Black of hair" thing comes into play. As for the R+L =J. The deciding factor for me is TTOJ . Why would the Kings Guard be there if not to protect a member of the Royal Family? disbeliefWhy aren't they with Rhaeger at the river?no Or with his wife and children?confuse Because they are with Rhaeger's legitimate child as per their vows. . . end of . smile

 

Of course then there's all the other stuff... the blue rose, the tourny.  the promise etc etc. but it's definatly the Tower of Joy and Kings Gaurd that swings it for me.



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Goddess of Tits and Wine
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That is funny tho.... good ol' Monty Python.... My cat's called Monty. :)



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Knight
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A woman is aware of the TOJ theories, and they do make sense. Just thinking through all other possibilities since we probably have at least 5 years till we actually find out the real answer to that riddle. I think we all agree that JS is not Ned's though. Poor Ned, had to put up with Cat's wrath for all those years, and for what?

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R+L=J has just too much evidence... like someone already said, GRRM didn't plan for this to go on so long, so it makes sense all the clues are there in Book One.

Talking about obvious endings/wanting more of a twist, I've never been able to get into Dany's storyline because I've always been certain she was going to win the Iron Throne, done and done. I just think that's so boring, and personally I don't think she deserves it (but then again, who does? the biggest debate topic, IMO). I mean as soon as she got dragons I said, well she's obviously going to the end.

But something that always compelled me was Mirri's Drogo Prophecy. I think that the whole "you will see your Drogo again" means she's going to bite the dust after all those things happen. GRRM's risen people in the past (and I expect even more zombies in the future, aha) but reviving Drogo again would seem a little far-fetched...

Honestly we wont know anything until we find out who the other riders are. They could possibly tip the scales if they wanted to have the throne for themselves. And there's always the off chance Dany could go mad like good old daddy-o. I heard that the madness was gradual...

Anyways, my whole point is that if Dany ends up getting everything she set out for it would be a bit stale. Showing her slow degeneration into madness is one hellva story though. Thoughts?

*Not a total Dany basher btw, not trying to offend any of her supporters, tehe

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Priestess of R'hllor
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The Instrumentalist wrote:



Anyways, my whole point is that if Dany ends up getting everything she set out for it would be a bit stale.


 

And not like GRRM at all. smile This is probably the main reason I'm 100% convinced he won't go that route. It's just something the large majority of readers/viewers expect, given how he's building her up as a ruler, and then a conqueror. My guess is that whoever gets to sit on the iron throne at the end of the series will be someone quite unexpected and, most important, someone not connected in any way to any fantastical element (ice or fire). I think it's pretty clear by now that, no matter the attraction we- as readers- may have on dragons, they are written from a much more realistic perspective - they are weapons of distruction first and foremost. I don't think anyone expects anything similar to a happy ending for this series, but I simply cannot imagine how Dany winning the throne might be set under the title 'A Dream of Spring'. no

PS: Ha! love your Tyrion quote.



-- Edited by Macha on Sunday 19th of August 2012 05:17:08 AM

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I don't think anyone will sit the Iron Throne... I think they'll elect a Parliament and the Royals will just be a figure head !biggrin



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Wielder of the Baratheon BANHAMMER
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Ya know how it will end? There will be a giant battle at Kings Landing, Dany's dragons Vs all the White walkers that came down with the winter cold. And just as it all comes to a head, they look at the sky and the comet we saw in book 2 is back and crashes to earth, destroying Westeros like "the doom at Valyria".

Lol, I would not put it past GRRM to completely troll us that way, haha

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High King and Conqueror of the Seven Kingdoms
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I read somewhere that George has said that he will wrap up most of the cliffhangers from ADWD pretty quickly into WOW. Within the first few chapters we will get the battle of the Snow as well as the Battle of Slavers Bay.



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Wielder of the Baratheon BANHAMMER
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Aegon is here! Well the board is legit now!

Can't wait, say what you want about George but he writes great battles.

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High King and Conqueror of the Seven Kingdoms
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Finally I can see what Macha's Avatar is.

If Dany sits on the Iron Throne I will lose it! I am voting for young Aegon all the way simply because of his competence. Dany is a horrible ruler and except for her badass arc in ASOS I have never really liked her. She cannot even control her own dragons. So yes I hope she bites the dust, I really do.

Oh it feels so freeing not having to worry about spoilers and adding spoiler text.

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Do I take it that I have the honour of adressing the former Omar of the house Brown?



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Wielder of the Baratheon BANHAMMER
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Aww Danny is ok. I think cruel ol George is gonna have the madness that cursed her father and her bother creep in.
In a way that would be sad, but also kinda awesome.

What do people expect tho? Cute little Dany really feels that the Iron throne belongs to her, and everyone we love in Westeros pretty much stands in her way.

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High King and Conqueror of the Seven Kingdoms
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"I'd be ok if Dany's role in the entire saga was to reintroduce the dragons into the world" someone said this and I quite agreed. The Mother of Dragons will hopefully die soon, either that or she will marry Aegon and give him her dragons seeing as he is (barring the Blackfyre theory) the rightful heir to the throne. Now all we need is for her to realise that she is in fact able to bear children again.

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High King and Conqueror of the Seven Kingdoms
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BTW who do you think will win the Battle in the Snow?

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I hope Stannis wins, I always liked the guy. He is a hardass but he is not cruel...well...unless you're Renly.

The bastard of Bolton has grown as the new evil dip**** after Joffrey, I would love to see him get messed up.

But things arent looking good, Stannis' army got culled by the harsh winter and Winterfell ( even in it's current state) is very hard to breach.

In any case, whatever happens, I hope its good.

 

Now what will happen in "The Battle Of Slavers Bay"? 



-- Edited by DonalNoyesArm on Sunday 19th of August 2012 03:52:16 PM

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Wielder of the Baratheon BANHAMMER
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Aegon the Conqueror wrote:

Do I take it that I have the honour of adressing the former Omar of the house Brown?


 Aye! Donal is also faceless ( and armless ) man...this is my new form!



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Well met your Grace and may I say you look even more impossing in your larger avator... smile



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Aegon the Conqueror wrote:

Finally I can see what Macha's Avatar is.


 Heh, I have many weaknesses, one of them being Jack Vettriano. wink

I was wondering when you'd show up, Aegon, great to see you here. 

Back on topic, I've always hoped GRRM will pull an Alexander Nevski with Stannis and the Battle of Ice. I have yet to re-read ADwD but I remember some speculation regarding a certain lake that one army might use by drawing the enemy on the ice. Man, I will friggin lose it if Ramsay's letter is true. Though I really can't see GRRM alerting the reader this early over such an important development. Stannis FTW!



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High King and Conqueror of the Seven Kingdoms
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Just wait till you see me in real life!

Macha

I highly doubt whether Ramsay's letter was real, I expect Stannis will succeed in some or other way perhaps using said lake. Stannis is far too important to the story to lose now whereas Ramsay meh not that important. Hopefully this and not the Battle of the Wall was the victory Mel made him see in the flames. I have a feeling should Stannis succeed here the North will rise for him en masse!



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Aegon the Conqueror wrote:

I highly doubt whether Ramsay's letter was real, I expect Stannis will succeed in some or other way perhaps using said lake. Stannis is far too important to the story to lose now whereas Ramsay meh not that important. Hopefully this and not the Battle of the Wall was the victory Mel made him see in the flames. I have a feeling should Stannis succeed here the North will rise for him en masse!


 Yeah, liberating Winterfell should unite the North, that would be pretty awesome.

While I like Stannis and would like to see him succeed I would like to see some messed up unexpected deaths.

GRRM has been backpaddling, Cat got murdered....but not really. Brienne seemed to die by the noose but nope. Jon seems to be dying, but we know better.

I think some untimely deaths of some (seemingly important ) characters could shake things up in unexpected ways and throw readers for a loop. There are some definate plot armor happening and makes things seem too safe.



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High King and Conqueror of the Seven Kingdoms
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So let him kill of Dany how funny would it be if Victorian is on his way to save her in Mereen and she dies at the hands of Khal Pono somewhere in the Dothraki Sea and IMO the Lady Stoneheart thing was more shocking than simply having Cat die as she's quite opposite of living Cat. Also this makes Beric's sacrifice all the sadder whereas before the BWB were all about justice and the King's Laws, it's now simply about revenge.
But yes I probably don't want Stannis to die cause I want a win for the less evil guys. And I want the North United again, too bad Stannis has no boy, would make an excellent match for Sansa assuming the Eyrie thing doesn't work out. How long do you guys think little Robert/ Robin will last?


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wink Simply cannot wait 5 years  for Ben Plumm and comp w/ Griff/ Connington factions duke it out either 

against each other or separate battles. Getting out of Mereen is probably not much of a chapter, it's

when a few well placed / worthy foes take each other on. aww Now what sort of resistance will Cersei

scheme up in Kings Landing yawn



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What doe TTOJ stand for ? If it has anything to do with the Targaryeons, they did have dark haired ancestry.

I am so envious of your Gravatar evileye



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Aegon the Conqueror wrote:

How long do you guys think little Robert/ Robin will last?


A butterfly will land on his cheek and he will get so scared he gets convulse to a quick death. ;-P Now that you mention him, what in gods name does GRRM have in store for Sansa? Her stuff got a lot less fun after Littlefinger chucked Lysa out of the Moon door ( can't wait for that scene! )

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We've yet to see how Robbin Arryn fits in Littlefinger's plan .He's fragile with epilepsy I think but also weak
health so he's a ticking bomb. He is part of a plan so we'll experience this quickly in book 6, right? I mean
it's not like GRRM to have us suffer from pending plots...........UGH!

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High King and Conqueror of the Seven Kingdoms
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Well some half assed plot by LF to get her to marry the heir to the Vale seeing as LF will have poor Robert murdered at the first chance he gets. How sad was the "are you my mommy now" scene?
Oh WildSeed I left you a msg on Wic.net but seeing as you are here now, did you receive my raven?

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Woah everything got OT for a second XD

Aegon is alright I guess, but I'm pretty sure he's the Mummer's Dragon. If that's true, poor Jon. D: Jonny's got greyscale and it just breaks my little heart. Good thing Tyrion's okay though, even though he's kinda turned into a jackass.

And the Tyrion quote in my signature is one of my favourite lines. It just stuck with me.

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He'd wished he'd been able to think of some rousing last words. "Bugger you all" was not like to earn him much of a place in the histories.

Wielder of the Baratheon BANHAMMER
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Did some cleanup, the board is new so we are all getting used to it, I try and be lenient when it veers a little of topic but if it goes too much new members might get confused. I myself was veered off course for second. Apologies.

I think the Aegon angle is neat, and a new monkey wrench in the crazy mechanism of GOT. I am anxious to see how it turns out.

So what about Arya? I found her stuff in AFFC a bit meandering, but once she became a stealthy killer I was back in. Who will be her first target? Will she get to choose? She never threw away needle, so she has not forgotten her past....

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Squire
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Oh, no problemo! Arya, Arya, Arya... I don't know. I'm just waiting for her to come back to Westeros and kick ass. I've been hoping that she gets in with the first sword of Braavos and the Sealord, that would be cool. But this is ASOIAF, not faniction, ahaha. She just better start killing people soon.

I know George was going to have a time jump, how long I don't know but I hope he starts ageing the kids a little faster. Their progression from childhood to adulthood is very interesting, and I hope we get to see them a bit older before the story's finished.

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He'd wished he'd been able to think of some rousing last words. "Bugger you all" was not like to earn him much of a place in the histories.

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WildSeed wrote:

We've yet to see how Robbin Arryn fits in Littlefinger's plan .He's fragile with epilepsy I think but also weak
health so he's a ticking bomb. He is part of a plan so we'll experience this quickly in book 6, right? I mean
it's not like GRRM to have us suffer from pending plots...........UGH!


 

I have always felt Robert Arryn is Littlefinger's son with Lysa... NOT Jon Arryn's son at all.

So he is part of his plan in a few ways! XD

 

Also. TTOJ or TOJ is the Tower of Joy.

I don't htink anyone replied yet.



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High King and Conqueror of the Seven Kingdoms
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mmmm I dont think so seeing as all indications when Lysa was pregnant with LF's kid was that he was healthy and strong. Whereas once she married Jon Arryn she miscarried several times and when Robert finally came he was weak. Plus she also believes it to be Arryn's child, remember the business about the seed being strong.

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DonalNoyesArm wrote:
Aegon the Conqueror wrote:

How long do you guys think little Robert/ Robin will last?


 

A butterfly will land on his cheek and he will get so scared he gets convulse to a quick death. ;-P Now that you mention him, what in gods name does GRRM have in store for Sansa? Her stuff got a lot less fun after Littlefinger chucked Lysa out of the Moon door ( can't wait for that scene! )


 LOL.  Wow, poor brave Ser Robin, he bravely runs away!  



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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water.  Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.

 

Lord Bannerman Of The Smileys
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DonalNoyesArm wrote:

 

;-P Now that you mention him, what in gods name does GRRM have in store for Sansa? Her stuff got a lot less fun after Littlefinger chucked Lysa out of the Moon door ( can't wait for that scene! )


 

Come to think of it, Sansa never has really looked or acted much like the other Starks. Are we sure she isn't the result of some revenge tryst between Catlyn and Littlefinger for Ned having returned home with baby Jon Snow ?

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Darquemode wrote:
WildSeed wrote:

We've yet to see how Robbin Arryn fits in Littlefinger's plan .He's fragile with epilepsy I think but also weak
health so he's a ticking bomb. He is part of a plan so we'll experience this quickly in book 6, right? I mean
it's not like GRRM to have us suffer from pending plots...........UGH!


 

I have always felt Robert Arryn is Littlefinger's son with Lysa... NOT Jon Arryn's son at all.

So he is part of his plan in a few ways! XD

 

Also. TTOJ or TOJ is the Tower of Joy.

I don't htink anyone replied yet.


smile Thanks darquemode. I'm still undecided on that point of Robin's parentage. Both you and Aegon the Conqueror make

valid points that I've considered as well but not ruled out any. Littlefinger has no love for the child but there is a plan that

includes little Robin. He's fragile physically but will not prevent further political manipulation from happening with the Vale lords.

Still, I wonder how essential LF is the scheme of things, do we need him ? I do admire his cunning, very thorough and

observant. If he and Tyrion were of the same cloth, there would be no weak spots. 



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Cary Storm wrote:
DonalNoyesArm wrote:

 

;-P Now that you mention him, what in gods name does GRRM have in store for Sansa? Her stuff got a lot less fun after Littlefinger chucked Lysa out of the Moon door ( can't wait for that scene! )


 

Come to think of it, Sansa never has really looked or acted much like the other Starks. Are we sure she isn't the result of some revenge tryst between Catlyn and Littlefinger for Ned having returned home with baby Jon Snow ?


 There's no way, Cat thoughts in GOT are pretty clear, she has not seen LF since the day he dueled Brandon Stark, she did not even say goodbye to him.



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Lord Bannerman Of The Smileys
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Aegon the Conqueror wrote:
Cary Storm wrote:
DonalNoyesArm wrote:

 

;-P Now that you mention him, what in gods name does GRRM have in store for Sansa? Her stuff got a lot less fun after Littlefinger chucked Lysa out of the Moon door ( can't wait for that scene! )


 

Come to think of it, Sansa never has really looked or acted much like the other Starks. Are we sure she isn't the result of some revenge tryst between Catlyn and Littlefinger for Ned having returned home with baby Jon Snow ?


 There's no way, Cat thoughts in GOT are pretty clear, she has not seen LF since the day he dueled Brandon Stark, she did not even say goodbye to him.


 Oh come now, creative writing can get around that... :) 



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High King and Conqueror of the Seven Kingdoms
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Like Macha pointed out, when GOT was written the series would have been a trilogy so the clues are all there in the first. I personally would be very dissapointed if that were the case as Cat's thoughts are pretty clear that she has not seen LF in years. Besides Robb also had more Tully in him than Stark.

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Actually, I've also thought Robin might be LF's son. Then again, you can hardly blame me for not being able to keep track with Lysa's bat**** crazy musings. 



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Macha's sigil A classic yellow smiley face on a colourful field.

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Make that a frowny gold smiley, on a black field, with a few pine trees in the background, this because it combines my favourite houses: Greyjoy/Baratheon/Mormont.

On topic: I have a few predictions of my own for the last two books, now let's what should I choose for TWoW thread...alrighty then, Bloodraven is the 'stone dragon' from the Azor Ahai prophecy (wake dragons out of stone) and Bran will be instrumental in Bloodraven's release from that cave - which was his goal all along. Ba dum tisk!  



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Has anyone else read the sample chapters George released? They've gotten me very excited for Stannis' upcoming battle.

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Children Of The Forest VP
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Andrew wrote:

Has anyone else read the sample chapters George released? They've gotten me very excited for Stannis' upcoming battle.


 You're in the appropriate place Andrew and should probably post here for other's to follow. I had to find the thread myself

and it appears that some relevant discussion of TWOW ended up in " Who will sit on the Iron Throne " thread. Look

there, post in both if you'd like.



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Lady Of The Blue Winter Rose
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Andrew wrote:

Has anyone else read the sample chapters George released? They've gotten me very excited for Stannis' upcoming battle.


 Yes kind ser of the North (?) I read them like 4 times already.



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Braavosi Water Dancer
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The Instrumentalist wrote:

R+L=J has just too much evidence... like someone already said, GRRM didn't plan for this to go on so long, so it makes sense all the clues are there in Book One.

Talking about obvious endings/wanting more of a twist, I've never been able to get into Dany's storyline because I've always been certain she was going to win the Iron Throne, done and done. I just think that's so boring, and personally I don't think she deserves it (but then again, who does? the biggest debate topic, IMO). I mean as soon as she got dragons I said, well she's obviously going to the end.

But something that always compelled me was Mirri's Drogo Prophecy. I think that the whole "you will see your Drogo again" means she's going to bite the dust after all those things happen. GRRM's risen people in the past (and I expect even more zombies in the future, aha) but reviving Drogo again would seem a little far-fetched...

Honestly we wont know anything until we find out who the other riders are. They could possibly tip the scales if they wanted to have the throne for themselves. And there's always the off chance Dany could go mad like good old daddy-o. I heard that the madness was gradual...

Anyways, my whole point is that if Dany ends up getting everything she set out for it would be a bit stale. Showing her slow degeneration into madness is one hellva story though. Thoughts?

*Not a total Dany basher btw, not trying to offend any of her supporters, tehe


 I agree. I like Dany, but I don't expect her to win. I always thought that prophecy meant she was going to die. And when the show put Drogo and Rhaego at the wall, it reinforced that point of view. Perhaps she'll make it to the wall and then die there?



-- Edited by Tir Airgid on Friday 24th of August 2012 05:19:47 PM

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Lord Bannerman Of The Smileys
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Andrew wrote:

Has anyone else read the sample chapters George released? They've gotten me very excited for Stannis' upcoming battle.


 Chapter(s)????  I must have missed one somewhere! 



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