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Topic: Religion and Magic in the world of Ice and Fire.

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Priestess of R'hllor
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RE: Religion and Magic in the world of Ice and Fire.
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This may sound a little crackpot, and I know the White Walkers/Others are supposed to be a different species (sort of), but ever since I re-read ACoK I kept wondering what happened to all of Craster's sons and...ok, here goes - does anything in the text indicate the existence of female White Walkers? Could it be that the White Walkers were once human and this is how they grow their numbers? I know it sounds a little crazy, I'm just thinking what would become of these babies, and I simply don't buy the theory that the Others take them and eat them, or something similar.

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Goddess of Tits and Wine
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This has long been a thought of mine , the only insight we have on what they do with the babies... is from Old Nan. They eat them. I was thinking about that too but , there was a bit that stated at Craster's camp that they had run out of animal sacrifices too...
I guess the thing is, we just don't have enough info... yet.


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Children Of The Forest VP
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I agree, not enough info to form an opinion. Methinks it may be addressed in a separate book as
several of us would hope, although GRRM may dismiss it altogether.

White Walkers were different species I thought. They were as ancient as the COTF and considered by
all a threat. Wonder how the people of Thenns made do.

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Goddess of Tits and Wine
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Also Macha, female White walker or Wight? Nights king's Mrs.......

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Priestess of R'hllor
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Good call, YvyB. From what I remember, she had those icy blue eyes and cold skin, but not a lot of details are given. He made her his bride but the text doesn't say anything about her actions. Was she being controlled? No, I think not, for him to be so smitten with her I think it's more likely for her to have been a female White Walker, and not a wight.

Thing is, I love Old Nan's stories as a narrative device, but I just don't buy all this talk of the WW being purely evil, hunting down humans and eating baby boys. Take Craster's sacrifices, If animals were good, why not the girls as well? Craster doesn't act like Lord Frey, of course it's horrible what he does to his daughters but he doesn't seem to be doing this for pleasure alone. It's almost like he's a man on a mission, preserving something, or working for someone. There has to be more to his faith than that.

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Lady Of The Blue Winter Rose
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Macha wrote:

Good call, YvyB. From what I remember, she had those icy blue eyes and cold skin, but not a lot of details are given. He made her his bride but the text doesn't say anything about her actions. Was she being controlled? No, I think not, for him to be so smitten with her I think it's more likely for her to have been a female White Walker, and not a wight.

Thing is, I love Old Nan's stories as a narrative device, but I just don't buy all this talk of the WW being purely evil, hunting down humans and eating baby boys. Take Craster's sacrifices, If animals were good, why not the girls as well? Craster doesn't act like Lord Frey, of course it's horrible what he does to his daughters but he doesn't seem to be doing this for pleasure alone. It's almost like he's a man on a mission, preserving something, or working for someone. There has to be more to his faith than that.


 Yes, my thoughts too.  There seems to be some method behind Crastor's madness besides just being batshit crazy.  The WW seem to have made some deal with him to leave he and his women alone, hence the baby boys.  I'm just have no idea what.



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High King and Conqueror of the Seven Kingdoms
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Read the death of Craster chapter last night. The boys are definetly not killed by the Others as the women warn Sam right before the Others show up that Gilly's baby's brothers are on their way.

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Priestess of R'hllor
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Thank you for reminding us that bit, Aegon, I wanted to mentioned it but it slipped my mind. So there are strong indications that the babies are not killed, and obviously they can't be wights - they'd need quite a bit of growing for them to be of any use. Interesting how Mormont still allows for these sacrifices to happen. Quite counterproductive, if the babies grow up to be the very thing he's fighting against. I wonder if this is indeed some kind of tradition or if Craster himself came up with this arrangement. The latter doesn't seem likely, seeing how Mormont kept referring to this practice. "The wildlings serve crueler gods than you or I" seems to imply a certain continuity.



-- Edited by Macha on Sunday 2nd of September 2012 01:12:30 PM

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High King and Conqueror of the Seven Kingdoms
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Well seeing as Gilly's mother is an old woman Craster's age, they would have time to turn into full grown Others.

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Children Of The Forest VP
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Aegon the Conqueror wrote:

Read the death of Craster chapter last night. The boys are definetly not killed by the Others as the women warn Sam right before the Others show up that Gilly's baby's brothers are on their way.


          Thanks Aegon. That clears up for me too and is as I thought. The babies were not eaten or described as such.

 

          However, I only remember what Gilly said to Sam but not exactly what she meant by expressing it. " Gilly's

           baby brother's are on their way ". I initially wanted to think of a help posse but the older Craster wives &

            Gilly said " They" the brothers would be there at Craster's camp soon because "the cold winds were rising"

            ( same as for when the Others and Wights show up ). This implied much but occured early in ASOS and

            skipped onto other characters in ASOIAF. So I left the thought there as I was not so certain but couldn't

              say these guys were definitely bad ( tho in retrospect I do believe that they are indeed wights ). It was

             Coldhands that rescued them afterall from the swarm of wights. It's the gaggle of Crows really that

            intrigued me more than anything. 

          

         Just for reference, and I'd invite Cary to check me on this ; A " sacrificial offering" is a type of of religious "offering"

         that may be concecrated by death or symbolically. Some religions as a practice used pure / untainted animals

         to put to death as appeasement, but others simply maimed or set aside something wholy different like that

        of a special giftor altar which may be anything ( incense, food, etc ). 

 

         Craster , I'm unsure that he practiced or maintained religious rites and services ( like perhaps the other 

         Wildlings ). He certainly performed a scarificial offering to the Others. 



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Goddess of Tits and Wine
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The Night's king used to give offerings too

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Wielder of the Baratheon BANHAMMER
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In the last episode I got a kick of how normally assured and confident Mellisandre was completely flabberghasted and how drunk and casual Thoros was able to revive Beric so many times.

Goes to show even seasoned practitioners of the Lord Of Light seem unsure of what and how he will manifest himself.

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Priestess of R'hllor
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You know I seem to recall an interview with GRRM where he said something along the lines of "Melisandre does not have any real magic, and her power comes mostly from glamours"? This weeks episode seemed to support this, but then I've always thought the shadow-babies are living (heh) proof that she does wield some powerful magic. Or was that just teleporting Stannis?

Anywho, I loved the contrast between Thoros and Mel. Really curious to see how they will approach the whole R'hllor vs the Great Other in future seasons.

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Defender Of The Realm
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"Melisandre does not have any real magic, and her power comes mostly from glamours"?

I heard that he said something in those lines! I still could not find the interview to see his exact words but I trust the person who quoted him. What I don't trust is GRRM's judgement of his own character in this!!! How exactly is birthing shadow babies not magic. I shall never understand his take on Melisandre.

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