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Topic: Essays of Ice and Fire: Tragic and Otherwise.

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Children Of The Forest VP
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RE: Tragic Characters of Ice and Fire
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Lyanna Stark wrote:
Aegon the Conqueror wrote:

I'll consider it, though the perils of writing on a woman is quite terrifying. Here there be monsters.


 Please do Catelyn Tulley-Stark.  Break the glass ceiling!


 I'm preparing an analysis of another male ( not Eddard ) and considered Catelyn and another but I just couldn't

without ripping my heart out. It's too soon for me to even read that again. 

You know you can choose any female for an analysis and discussion point. If you want Cate though, why not ?

take a stab at it ( oh my....) I mean target your points to her ........oh , you get my idea ):



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High King and Conqueror of the Seven Kingdoms
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Don't think I will do Catelyn, I might do THeon, but overall I'm trying to stay away from POV characters. Barristan was easy because he only has one or two chapters. I'll how I feel, researching and writing these things takes longer than one might think.

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Children Of The Forest VP
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Aegon the Conqueror wrote:

Don't think I will do Catelyn, I might do THeon, but overall I'm trying to stay away from POV characters. Barristan was easy because he only has one or two chapters. I'll how I feel, researching and writing these things takes longer than one might think.


 I know what you mean. Why I've chosen mine was equal parts brava and sheer insanity. POV characters are

loaded subjects and much gray areas for too much speculation. What I've managed to do so far was to narrow

my scope and type known relevancy . I'll leave the speculation and wordplay for everyone else. I have my words

intertwined with GRRM 's quotes. I'm done and will post soon.

 

Maybe lady Lyanna may wish to present Catelyn or another ASOIAF female to discuss.



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Lady Of The Blue Winter Rose
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Aegon the Conqueror wrote:
Cary Storm wrote:
Lyanna Stark wrote:
Aegon the Conqueror wrote:

Any suggestions for a next tragic character? Not Ned please, still too painful!


 Perhaps the Hound? or Aemon Targaryan? or are you all targed out? biggrin


 Yes, the Hound!  Please !


 Mmmmm Aemon is a bit difficult, I'll see maybe in future. But the Hound, now there's something I could do! 

Watch this space!


 Aegon could you or would you do one on Jeor Mormont? I know little or nothing of his history and would like more info on him. 



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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water.  Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.

 

Lady Of The Blue Winter Rose
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WildSeed wrote:
Aegon the Conqueror wrote:

Don't think I will do Catelyn, I might do THeon, but overall I'm trying to stay away from POV characters. Barristan was easy because he only has one or two chapters. I'll how I feel, researching and writing these things takes longer than one might think.


 I know what you mean. Why I've chosen mine was equal parts brava and sheer insanity. POV characters are

loaded subjects and much gray areas for too much speculation. What I've managed to do so far was to narrow

my scope and type known relevancy . I'll leave the speculation and wordplay for everyone else. I have my words

intertwined with GRRM 's quotes. I'm done and will post soon.

 

Maybe lady Lyanna may wish to present Catelyn or another ASOIAF female to discuss.


 Oh, Wildwoman, I would love to but I do not possess thick skin! I already suggested a thread and was told no.  There is only so  much rejection a Lady can take! cry



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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water.  Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.

 

Children Of The Forest VP
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What Thread did you suggest ? I'm curious. Only reptiles have thick skin, you're a lady of House Stark :D

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High King and Conqueror of the Seven Kingdoms
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You yourself vigorously shot down her motion for House Cougar Ours is the Beauty girl talk lol!

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Children Of The Forest VP
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The COTF vp shoots no quarrell/ arrow nor wield a sword. The COTF only responds or offer advice should
an uprising proves near. No wars, no position of power and no weapon. The COTF will not argue, it is
known. In such matters Words are Wind. The COTF vp only invites discussion and never vigorously.

I think you are mistaken young king. I gave no disapproval but questioned my use of such a Forum
Category. I was kind enough to offer reason why by private raven. As council shared thoughts on this
there were more than I thinking the same. However in the spirit of camaraderie, my consideration
changed to allow if the people wills it. I believe the people spoke that they do.

I believe my lady Lyanna Stark may be referring to your refusal to offer analysis of her sister inlay
lady Catelyn Tully-Stark, if I'm not mistaken.

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Lady Of The Blue Winter Rose
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WildSeed wrote:

What Thread did you suggest ? I'm curious. Only reptiles have thick skin, you're a lady of House Stark :D


 You are very kind to reply.  Alas,  will remain a by-stander on this and things like politics/political discussions, at least on the internet, and mostly on this site.  I like everyone on here and am very happy!



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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water.  Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.

 

Lady Of The Blue Winter Rose
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Aegon the Conqueror wrote:

You yourself vigorously shot down her motion for House Cougar Ours is the Beauty girl talk lol!


 Your Grace, many thanks for thinking of me.  However, I think it best I simply respond to the posts/blogs of others as opposed to writing my own/starting my own.  I don't take criticism well, a flaw of mine I admit, and I think in order to be effective in this area one needs to simply take it and go on. 



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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water.  Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.

 

High King and Conqueror of the Seven Kingdoms
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Pardon my harsh words lady WildSeed, they were meaint in jest and in no way as an affront to your views, opinions or your way of conducting yourself while on here. I can only explain my actions by saying that I misunderstood Lyanna's meaning and by using a quote from Illyrio and saying that kings oft lack the caution of common men. With age comes wisdom and youth oft brings a boldness that can turn to recklesness.
I can only beg a lady's forgiveness and ask her to ignore one's previous comment.

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Lord Bannerman Of The Smileys
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Aegon the Conqueror wrote:

Pardon my harsh words lady WildSeed, they were meaint in jest and in no way as an affront to your views, opinions or your way of conducting yourself while on here. I can only explain my actions by saying that I misunderstood Lyanna's meaning and by using a quote from Illyrio and saying that kings oft lack the caution of common men. With age comes wisdom and youth oft brings a boldness that can turn to recklesness.
I can only beg a lady's forgiveness and ask her to ignore one's previous comment.


 Youthful indiscretions. So, here's a tragic character for you: Lady Roslyn Frey. Or any Frey for that matter. They are after all victims of their own geneology. 



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High King and Conqueror of the Seven Kingdoms
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I'll have to look her up, can't remember her


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Aegon the Conqueror wrote:

I'll have to look her up, can't remember her


 

Spoiler
, think it's spelled Roslin though.



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How could you forget

Spoiler
 smile



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Lord Bannerman Of The Smileys
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Aegon the Conqueror wrote:

I'll have to look her up, can't remember her


 She's also the only (or one of the few) attractive female Freys. Of course, she might not age well...but for

Spoiler



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"Who the fuck is Jon Snow?"  Locke

High King and Conqueror of the Seven Kingdoms
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Ah remember the character just not the name.
Well perhaps in the future. I discovered the subject of my next essay while re-reading ASOS.
So soRry to dissapoint you guys, but the next one is quite the popular character and the choice might make Macha jump for joy.

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Jorah? Stannis? (neah, he even has his own thread biggrin) Jaime? Theon? ... Victarion? lol, just kidding on that last one. 

DOLOROUS EDD! aww



-- Edited by Macha on Friday 7th of September 2012 05:27:10 PM

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A Case for Tyrion Lannister as Tragic Hero.

" All dwarfs may be bastards, yet not all bastards need be dwarfs"

He is the son of a very powerful and ruthless father deeply involved in the struggles for power, and grew up
motherless. His 2 other siblings, Jaime and Cersei, are paragons of cruelty and beauty; his noble father considers
him a blow to his pride, so he played ruthlessly with his affections for a common girl and used him as another
convenient stepping stone of his ambitions. Beyond that, the story of his adventures and the soap opera of disasters
that follow him is worth discovering, as he is forced from the jesting sidelines into the center of a the power play.

And yet none of this explains why I do like him..Other characters in the ASOIAF series have nobility going for them
__ like Jon or his father Ned. Most show loyalty to family __like Catelyn, some have iron will like Stannis or a
particular sense of personal failure __like Jaime.This is also dissimilar to ambitious Littlefinger or even a sense
of destiny__like Danerys. At the end of the day it would be Tyrion as my choice to go to a tavern with and discuss
interesting topics, political futures and feel as if we're on the same page.
I sy this because Tyrion Lannister is a study in contrasts, beauty of soul opposed to beauty of body, but he is not
a simple study of humanity's virtues beyond humanity's form. Tyrion has altogether too many defects ! He has
been betrayed and deceived, he has had some rough spots and has been furious, even merciless. But he remains
human. Actually Tyrion has humanity in spades, and he remains recognizably a decent human being in spite all
the things that happen to him and despite his form. It should also be acknowledged that Tyrion lacks the ambition
that so marks his family ( but that does not make him without goals ), he wishes for normalcy. To add , love of
life, respect & love from his family, respect from peers. Hell, love in general for fucks sake. And here's the rub,
he will never fit, not because he is small and his family beastly, but because he is " different ". Tyrion is like
a modern man in a kingdom of madness, looking in from the sidelines and calling attention on just how under
dressed everyone else is. In the middle of a bloodbath that surrounds him and that he cannot stop or condone.

An honorable mention here of Tyrion's uncle, ser Kevan Lannister. I believed him respectful to his nephew and
was one of the few after his injuries during the battle of the Blackwater to praise him and his abilities.

The story of Tyrion may linger longer than most as indicated by Moqorro in ADWD " Dragons old and young,
true and false, bright and dark. And you, a small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of it all "

I know, I had to pause when I re-read that passage because I heard it spoken so eloquently by Varys on GoT.

And Now I must share my favourite Tyrion quotes :

" Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your
weakness. Armor yourself in it, and never will it be used to hurt you. "

" I have a realistic grasp of my weaknesses and my strengths. My mind is my weapon. My brother has his
sword, king Robert Robert has his war hammer, and I have my mind....and a mind needs books as a
sword needs a whetstone, if it to keep it's edge. That's why I read so much, Jon Snow. "

" The Lord of Light wants his enemies burnt. The Drowned God wants his enemies drowned. Why are all
the gods such vicious counts ? Where is the god of tits and wine ? "

" And I have a tender spot in my heart for cripples and bastards and broken things. "

" Why is it that when a man builds a wall, the next man immediately needs to know what's on the other side".




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Goddess of Tits and Wine
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Well said WildSeed... it is human nature to love an underdog ... that I believe is his main appeal. An underdog that comes good ... we root for him because we want him to succeed ... as we believe he deserves it... not because he has had a bad lot... but because he has proven himself to us the reader as a bloody good egg! (no pun intended) :0)

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Children Of The Forest VP
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Thanks little lady, it was an undertaking and bitch for a non typist to type, but I enjoyed every word
as I did so. So much more could be said but you got the gist of it. Merci Beaucoup.

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Lady Of The Blue Winter Rose
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WildSeed wrote:

A Case for Tyrion Lannister as Tragic Hero.

" All dwarfs may be bastards, yet not all bastards need be dwarfs"

And Now I must share my favourite Tyrion quotes :

" Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your
weakness. Armor yourself in it, and never will it be used to hurt you. "

" I have a realistic grasp of my weaknesses and my strengths. My mind is my weapon. My brother has his
sword, king Robert Robert has his war hammer, and I have my mind....and a mind needs books as a
sword needs a whetstone, if it to keep it's edge. That's why I read so much, Jon Snow. "

" The Lord of Light wants his enemies burnt. The Drowned God wants his enemies drowned. Why are all
the gods such vicious counts ? Where is the god of tits and wine ? "

" And I have a tender spot in my heart for cripples and bastards and broken things. "

" Why is it that when a man builds a wall, the next man immediately needs to know what's on the other side".



 His quotes are so good.  So good to see them in one place.  Nicely done, Lady.



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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water.  Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.

 

Priestess of R'hllor
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WildSeed wrote:

His 2 other siblings, Jaime and Cersei, are paragons of cruelty and beauty; 


Imma stop you right there, Wildseed. When has Jaime ever been cruel? And by cruel, I understand someone who takes pleasure in seeing other people suffer. He has caused suffering but I'd argue the use of the term. Not my intention to derail the topic, but this just stood out. 



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Aegon the Conqueror wrote:

But such is the curse of love, it prevents even the brightest of men of thinking clearly and what appears to us as a clear mistake never occured to be wrong to the noble Rhaegar. If only the young lovers had thought, mayhaps Lyanna would've made a better queen than the sickly Elia who would;ve died soon. Perhaps the bethrothal could still be broken. If only Rhaegar had joined the war sooner, would the rebels have had the momentum needed to break the Targeryen forces? Or perhaps Rhaegar was as dark as Robert described him and was a villain who deserved his death? Perhaps he kidnapped and raped Lyana against her will, yet this writer finds it unlikely.

So many unanswered questions remain, but that is the tradegy of Rhaegar Targeryen, a single choice for love cost him everything and the lives of millions to come. A man who would have made an incredible king and could've guided Westeros into an unprecedented era of prosperity. 


 Aaaaaand you've just proven why Rhaegar would have made an awful king. biggrin

I just love to contradict you on this, because we've got such opposite ideas on what makes a ruler efficient. Hope you won't hold this against me. smile Now...en garde!

In this one's opinion, rulling does not suit the likes of Rhaegar. a) he's never shown an interest or capability for it. Do not mistake prowess in battle or an illuminated mind for efficiency in ruling. b) the way GRRM portrayed him so far, he seems terribly undecisive and counterintuitive. Huge minus for a would-be-king. c) he lacks cunning and quite frankly, the ability to think long-term or plan ahead, and you've ilustrated the last two points yourself. 

While I'm on the subject of Rhaegar, this time as a person. Remember the only other time blue roses are referenced in the story in regards to a woman? Think Bael the Bard, who left a blue rose for everyone to see after he took off with What-Her-Name Stark. Crowning Lyanna as Queen of love and beauty equals to a huge spit in the face for not one, but three families. Lyanna's, Robert's, and most importantly his own. Elia was THERE, for R'hllor's sake. A clever and considerate husband would find a way to go off and have an affair (or a son, if he only had the prophecy in mind) without alerting the whole fucking kingdom, least of all his wife

 



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Macha wrote:
WildSeed wrote:

His 2 other siblings, Jaime and Cersei, are paragons of cruelty and beauty; 


Imma stop you right there, Wildseed. When has Jaime ever been cruel? And by cruel, I understand someone who takes pleasure in seeing other people suffer. He has caused suffering but I'd argue the use of the term. Not my intention to derail the topic, but this just stood out. 


 Ahh.. fair lady, it is not Jaime that is cruel but his sister. To be accurate they both possess such traits albeit in differing

amounts. If I were to levy a percentage , then I would say : Jaime  38% cruelty 62% handsome; Cersei 58% x 42% .

That's at the top of my head, opinions may differ but I believe a cruel nature renders an ugly image no matter the

beautiful exterior. Jaime certainly has earned empathy for what has acknowledged about his deeds towards his brother

and any other his brash behaviour has dishonored. To be sure I am most interested in his personal growth as he

considers what it means to an honorable man with values instead of noble arrogance. As for Cersei , I am probably

too high in giving her points for beauty because a significant point of view from the books were alluded to as her own.

AS a young maiden she may have been pretty, even beautiful, aren't most noble maids? There are exceptions of course,

you may have been born an unattractive Frey maiden for contrast. Cersei Lannister-Baratheon 's beauty may not

have stacked up against the maidens of Dorne to be sure and her walk of shame did nothing to disclose the longevity

of it. I would venture that she was even jealous of Sans Stark for what was lacking in herself. Cersei is by my estimates

quite an ugly soul of a person, her sociopathic greed for attention , cruel acts as a child ( towards Tyrion ) and snobbery

puts her in a tie with any ugly duckiling Frey female. She does not however, compete for my distain of Lysa Tully-Arryn.

To Add : It is fact so far, that Tyrion only has fond memories of his long deceased uncle in being thoughtful and kind to

him and ser Kevan as family members. As for women, there was Tysha.



-- Edited by WildSeed on Saturday 8th of September 2012 06:06:01 PM

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Macha wrote:
Aegon the Conqueror wrote:

But such is the curse of love, it prevents even the brightest of men of thinking clearly and what appears to us as a clear mistake never occured to be wrong to the noble Rhaegar. If only the young lovers had thought, mayhaps Lyanna would've made a better queen than the sickly Elia who would;ve died soon. Perhaps the bethrothal could still be broken. If only Rhaegar had joined the war sooner, would the rebels have had the momentum needed to break the Targeryen forces? Or perhaps Rhaegar was as dark as Robert described him and was a villain who deserved his death? Perhaps he kidnapped and raped Lyana against her will, yet this writer finds it unlikely.

So many unanswered questions remain, but that is the tradegy of Rhaegar Targeryen, a single choice for love cost him everything and the lives of millions to come. A man who would have made an incredible king and could've guided Westeros into an unprecedented era of prosperity. 


 Aaaaaand you've just proven why Rhaegar would have made an awful king. biggrin

I just love to contradict you on this, because we've got such opposite ideas on what makes a ruler efficient. Hope you won't hold this against me. smile Now...en garde!

In this one's opinion, rulling does not suit the likes of Rhaegar. a) he's never shown an interest or capability for it. Do not mistake prowess in battle or an illuminated mind for efficiency in ruling. b) the way GRRM portrayed him so far, he seems terribly undecisive and counterintuitive. Huge minus for a would-be-king. c) he lacks cunning and quite frankly, the ability to think long-term or plan ahead, and you've ilustrated the last two points yourself. 

While I'm on the subject of Rhaegar, this time as a person. Remember the only other time blue roses are referenced in the story in regards to a woman? Think Bael the Bard, who left a blue rose for everyone to see after he took off with What-Her-Name Stark. Crowning Lyanna as Queen of love and beauty equals to a huge spit in the face for not one, but three families. Lyanna's, Robert's, and most importantly his own. Elia was THERE, for R'hllor's sake. A clever and considerate husband would find a way to go off and have an affair (or a son, if he only had the prophecy in mind) without alerting the whole fucking kingdom, least of all his wife

 


 Hmmmm.......I like where you heading. I have much more to learn and not quite sure of past stories ( well

to be accurate I'm only aware of some because GRRM is still revealing stuff furious to be continued in another

book ).



-- Edited by WildSeed on Saturday 8th of September 2012 10:44:08 PM

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Lady Of The Blue Winter Rose
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With regard to Rhaegar, I'm not sure what kind of king he would have made. I do know that stupid indescretions are the "king can do whatever he wants" modus operendi. King Robert banged every thing that walked, had several illegitimate children and was a drunk. What Rhaegar did with Lyanna would have been swept under the rug when Elia died if not for the TOJ. Robert still managed to keep peace for how many years? Was he a good husband? NO, good father, Godswood NO. However, he and Jon Aryn kept the peace. I do know that Selmy and Jorah both said that, "Rhaegar was the last of the dragons". And, at least until his passing he was not "mad".

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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water.  Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.

 

High King and Conqueror of the Seven Kingdoms
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I will answer Macha as soon as I am home tonight and back on a laptop.
So the inspiration for my next essay came from this quote, "I honour and respect and cherish you--but I do not desire you Jorah Mormont." Can you say ouch!

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I say " ARKWARD"



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Macha wrote:
Aegon the Conqueror wrote:

But such is the curse of love, it prevents even the brightest of men of thinking clearly and what appears to us as a clear mistake never occured to be wrong to the noble Rhaegar. If only the young lovers had thought, mayhaps Lyanna would've made a better queen than the sickly Elia who would;ve died soon. Perhaps the bethrothal could still be broken. If only Rhaegar had joined the war sooner, would the rebels have had the momentum needed to break the Targeryen forces? Or perhaps Rhaegar was as dark as Robert described him and was a villain who deserved his death? Perhaps he kidnapped and raped Lyana against her will, yet this writer finds it unlikely.

So many unanswered questions remain, but that is the tradegy of Rhaegar Targeryen, a single choice for love cost him everything and the lives of millions to come. A man who would have made an incredible king and could've guided Westeros into an unprecedented era of prosperity. 


 Aaaaaand you've just proven why Rhaegar would have made an awful king. biggrin

I just love to contradict you on this, because we've got such opposite ideas on what makes a ruler efficient. Hope you won't hold this against me. smile Now...en garde!

In this one's opinion, rulling does not suit the likes of Rhaegar. a) he's never shown an interest or capability for it. Do not mistake prowess in battle or an illuminated mind for efficiency in ruling. b) the way GRRM portrayed him so far, he seems terribly undecisive and counterintuitive. Huge minus for a would-be-king. c) he lacks cunning and quite frankly, the ability to think long-term or plan ahead, and you've ilustrated the last two points yourself. 

While I'm on the subject of Rhaegar, this time as a person. Remember the only other time blue roses are referenced in the story in regards to a woman? Think Bael the Bard, who left a blue rose for everyone to see after he took off with What-Her-Name Stark. Crowning Lyanna as Queen of love and beauty equals to a huge spit in the face for not one, but three families. Lyanna's, Robert's, and most importantly his own. Elia was THERE, for R'hllor's sake. A clever and considerate husband would find a way to go off and have an affair (or a son, if he only had the prophecy in mind) without alerting the whole fucking kingdom, least of all his wife

 


 

Well considering Rhaegar was a young love struck man he probably wasn't thinking about what it would to do to the families, something I can understand completely. Knowing Lyanna she probably said something like that girl in Knight's Tale, with the whole prove your love to me, you women are like that you know. And Rhaegar the poor love besotted sap that he was acted on impulse and rewarded her with the crown. 

As for the matters of state, GRRM never once said anything on the matter, whether he had an interest or not, but the fact that the common people loved him so much as well as Selmy's testimony that he would have made a better king that the three Selmy had served put together, leads me to believe he was quite effective in this regard. One must also lament the fact that he was raised my a man who was forever after kown as the mad king, such poor preparation. I also think your statement that he has no cunning is baseless as we do not have enough info to decide on that. What a man does when he is irrevocably and totally in love is sometimes quite out of character for said person as most men make choices based on logic not emotion. A man in love in my experience has the same objective descision making skills as a woman at the peak of severe PMS. Like I said, the man's greatest mistake was falling in love. 

I think it's unfair to judge what kind of a king a man would have been based on a mistake he made while being high on love. 



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Incest does breed genetic deformities , hidden or blatant. The mad king will be forever known as a
Targaryeon downfall in the Westeros history books. I agree with you in your above response if for not
only the mitigating circumstance, but to also include that we as readers are eagerly awaiting additional
information to form a whole decision ( as I'd mentioned earlier. ) So much is still being written and
rush to condemn or condone is somewhat like starting at the end when we are not aware of prior
events leading up to the moment of reaction. I am guilty of doing the same, and took it upon
myself to accept what I'm reading at face value , augmenting or learning more as GRRM reveals . Still
there has been an acceptable amount for few characters to extrapolate a reasonable impression
of their character, Cersei for instance. Yet there remains the why part ( which remains constant with
ASOIAF characters). We do not have enough to form that of Rhaegar , but his circumstances do
impact his actions, much the same as the duel between Ned and Jaime. I will never forget my judgement
of Theon however, I was ready to flay him myself before GRRM picked up his story again. Now my heart
goes out to him. Why are humans such paradoxes ? Perhaps as the few wiser Greeks and Romans
considered ,we only see through the glass dimly until we gain insight and wisdom to make clear what
we see or experience .That my take on it, not a quote or anything.



-- Edited by WildSeed on Sunday 9th of September 2012 05:39:49 PM

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High King and Conqueror of the Seven Kingdoms
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I still wanna flay Theon, despite knowing his circumstances.
Damn I cannot explain how much I want series or film about Robert's Rebellion. BTW I have always wondered whether Robb was named after Robert. I will probably write my Jorah essay tomorrow.

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Knight
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Interesting essays and thoughts all! A woman enjoys reading everybody's analysis.

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Aegon the Conqueror wrote:

I still wanna flay Theon, despite knowing his circumstances.
Damn I cannot explain how much I want series or film about Robert's Rebellion. BTW I have always wondered whether Robb was named after Robert. I will probably write my Jorah essay tomorrow.


 Yep, I heard Cat say in one of the episodes that Robb was named after Robert Baratheon.  As far as Theon, I do not believe in torture under pretty much any circumstances, even being a Stark.  Have his head taken off, feed him to a Kracken, what ever but torture is not an option in my mind.



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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water.  Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.

 

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Lyanna Stark wrote:
Aegon the Conqueror wrote:

I still wanna flay Theon, despite knowing his circumstances.
Damn I cannot explain how much I want series or film about Robert's Rebellion. BTW I have always wondered whether Robb was named after Robert. I will probably write my Jorah essay tomorrow.


 Yep, I heard Cat say in one of the episodes that Robb was named after Robert Baratheon.  As far as Theon, I do not believe in torture under pretty much any circumstances, even being a Stark.  Have his head taken off, feed him to a Kracken, what ever but torture is not an option in my mind.


 Aye my lady. Be it known also, an eye for an eye and pretty soon no one is left to see.

 

Torture is barbaric, our ser Qyburn will have a taste of his own medicine likely. GRRM may have an interesting chapter

for him.



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Macha wrote:

Jorah? Stannis? (neah, he even has his own thread biggrin) Jaime? Theon? ... Victarion? lol, just kidding on that last one. 

DOLOROUS EDD! aww



-- Edited by Macha on Friday 7th of September 2012 05:27:10 PM


 There needs to be a Book of Edd written for fans. There have been many interesting passages from the books but Dolorous

Edd often lightened my mood or challenged me with puns. Every Night's Watch recruit should be required to listen to

his stories and wit. I will knight him, duke of Edd



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Braavosi Water Dancer
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but the fact that the common people loved him so much as well as Selmy's testimony that he would have made a better king that the three Selmy had served put together, leads me to believe he was quite effective in this regard.

Better than a madman, a disgruntled drunko and an evil child? That's setting the bar very low. And as for the "love" of the people who haven't yet lived under his rule... "the people" are kinda hard to gage. And we do not hear a huge sample of common people from different walks of life talking about how much they loved Rhaegar. We only hear some particular persons who thought the people loved him in their own opinion.

ETA: I agree with Macha's assesment of Rheagar, personally.



-- Edited by Tir Airgid on Monday 10th of September 2012 12:06:39 PM

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High King and Conqueror of the Seven Kingdoms
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People cheered for Aerys, twice as hard for Tywin, but only half as hard for Rhaegar. You forget Jahearys, Joffrey doesn't count. It's stated several times that the common folk loved him.

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Aegon the Conqueror wrote:

People cheered for Aerys, twice as hard for Tywin, but only half as hard for Rhaegar. You forget Jahearys, Joffrey doesn't count. It's stated several times that the common folk loved him.


 Ok. I conceed on the Joffrey bit. But back to the point I was trying to make, it's stated by whom? How many common folk POVs do we have? It's just the opinion of a couple of characters, who hardly qualify themselves as members of the "common folk".



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High King and Conqueror of the Seven Kingdoms
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Barristan isn't a man to lie you know. One cannot dispute that Rhaegar was very popular with the small folk.

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Aegon the Conqueror wrote:

Barristan isn't a man to lie you know. One cannot dispute that Rhaegar was very popular with the small folk.


I don't think he's lieing. I think it's just his point of view, he's telling it as he saw it. It's his opinion, his truth, but not "the truth". And it can be disputed.

On another note, popularity is also a slippery concept. And is treacherous. After all, they never had him as king, so we don't know if even Barristan would have seen him as popular once he had actually tried his hand at governing. I agree that Rhaegar was probably popular at some point in time, but I see him as popular in a sort of boy band / sportman celebrity sort of way. But that's probably for another post on another thread.



-- Edited by Tir Airgid on Monday 10th of September 2012 11:22:56 AM

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High King and Conqueror of the Seven Kingdoms
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Well until GRRM provides us with more details it appears we are at an empasse, let's agree to disagree until GRRM shows one of us up.

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Aegon the Conqueror wrote:

Well until GRRM provides us with more details it appears we are at an empasse, let's agree to disagree until GRRM shows one of us up.


 Deal



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Aegon,
Since when do we judge good kings by how popular they are with the small folk? Popularity does not equal competence. Actually, GRRM himself makes a point out of showing just how unpopular Tyrion grew with the masses, and we'd be fools to dismiss his competence as a ruler. Actually, history is full of such examples. The fact that someone has a bad reputation among his contemporaries means absolutely nothing 'in the great scheme of things'. If you read roman authors from the first century you'd think the world was coming to an end, and yet if we look at it now it was obviously a period of great achievements. It's just a matter of discourse



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Braavosi Water Dancer
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Macha wrote:

Popularity does not equal competence. Actually, GRRM himself makes a point out of showing just how unpopular Tyrion grew with the masses, and we'd be fools to dismiss his competence as a ruler. Actually, history is full of such examples. The fact that someone has a bad reputation among his contemporaries means absolutely nothing 'in the great scheme of things'.

It's just a matter of discourse


 Just popping in to say I agree. History is plagued with popular and populist characters that were nefarious to their countries and with characters that were viewed as nefarious by their contemporaries and yet in hindsight they were among the best rules those countries have ever had.



-- Edited by Tir Airgid on Monday 10th of September 2012 12:21:29 PM

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High King and Conqueror of the Seven Kingdoms
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Well I still think he would make a good king, but I have very little evidence to back me up, as do you. So we know he was popular and Barristan thinks he would have made a great king, as does Eddard. That's the only evidence I have.

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Tir Airgid wrote:
Macha wrote:

Popularity does not equal competence. Actually, GRRM himself makes a point out of showing just how unpopular Tyrion grew with the masses, and we'd be fools to dismiss his competence as a ruler. Actually, history is full of such examples. The fact that someone has a bad reputation among his contemporaries means absolutely nothing 'in the great scheme of things'.

It's just a matter of discourse


 Just popping in to say I agree. History is plagued with popular and populist characters that were nefarious to their countries and with characters that were viewed as nefarious by their contemporaries and yet in hindsight they were among the best rules those countries have ever had.



-- Edited by Tir Airgid on Monday 10th of September 2012 12:21:29 PM


 All of you ;  Aegon, Macha , TirAigid , make excellent points with each being true. However more accurate than true

is that we don't have enough of Rhaegar's story to base a decision on his rule. Mitgating circumstances and historical

insights are both part of the equation here , whereas Rhaegar's POV is core to making a decision. Personally, I will

extract that question of interst ( as I have made of the rest ) and put it aside for future insights. Do you remember

When Dumbledore extracted his intuitive thoughts and placed them in a sieve , comingling with other extracted thoughts

and memories ? Unless the fun for speculation proves hard to resist ( I know it is ) , place it into the Bowl for future

ingredients ( nuggets of tasty insights ) so that that future morsels become a nicely baked pie, a decision made certain.

I mean, it's not like GRRM will drag us along for years before he releases definitive information, will he ? WiLLLL HHEEEEE?

 

I do wish Ned and Robert was alive to answer a few questions that I've speculated on , I believe some hints may lie

within the chapters we have already read, for me a re-read may be in order. But to be sure, they are only hints, the

rest will be made plain in TWOW or the next oorrrrr ( shit fuck !!hmm ) not at all. Curse you George Martin, you caused

another sort of war ser furious !

 

I'm really hoping that the Time Line gets sorted soon and a sensible historical reference gets put in a volume. Searching

all over the internet for the assortment of analyses pale to what the author had decided. GRRM knows he's witholding.

I hope he has the grace to provide us with a compendium or companion book. I'm aware that Pearson Moore and a few

other's have theirs , which illustrates my frustration with anyone but George's word.



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High King and Conqueror of the Seven Kingdoms
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I just read the Red Wedding...I feel so hollow inside! Fuck Roose Bolton, Fuck the Freys, Fuck GRRM!

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High King and Conqueror of the Seven Kingdoms
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I really need to get started on the Jorah essay huh?

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As you wish sire. Am I discerning that you will be the sole producer of essays ?

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