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Topic: Essays of Ice and Fire: Tragic and Otherwise.

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High King and Conqueror of the Seven Kingdoms
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Well anyone else is welcome to join in. I do it cause it stimulates me and analysing people is fun. But anyone else is welcome join in the fun, whether by writing essays of their own, or by commenting on mine.

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Aegon the Conqueror wrote:

Well anyone else is welcome to join in. I do it cause it stimulates me and analysing people is fun. But anyone else is welcome join in the fun, whether by writing essays of their own, or by commenting on mine.


 Of course Aegon the Conqueror, I do enjoy them with anticipation. Such subjects are thought provoking

and often emotional stirring for these characters. At least that is what it does for me. My comment is for

all reading as to hint that anyone and at anytime may begin a subject. I am being bad and holding on to 

my next already prepared analysis until my mother improves a bit more.



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High King and Conqueror of the Seven Kingdoms
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We all hope that is very soon Wild Woman.

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High King and Conqueror of the Seven Kingdoms
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I think I'm going to handle this essay like GRRM would.

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High King and Conqueror of the Seven Kingdoms
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He was a man who fell beneath the spell of a beautiful witch. Exiled by a man he served for years. A appointment's to a father who had left everything to him. Only to fall in love with a woman far out of his reach. The Tragedy of Jorah Mormont, tonight on the Tragic Characters thread.

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"Like a Dog that returns to his vomit is a fool who repeats his folly." - Proverbs 26:11

 

A Bear and the Maiden fair: a closer look at the character of Ser Jorah Mormont

We all know and love the exiled knight of Westeros, keeping watch, guarding his queen and advising her against the danger of the world. Serving her with a deep devotion, a deep love. But who is the man beneath the closely guarded exterior, what is it that gives this warrior his sad poetic smile? What drives the man to serve Danearys Targeryen so faithfully? It is not the prospect of simply returning home, if it was he would've allowed for her to die. Some would answer love, but what if it is not that simple? What if there is another reason?

Jorah Mormont was the oldest and only son of Lord Jeor Mormont, better known to us as Lord Commander Mormont of the Knight's Watch. The Mormonts were and old and proud albeit poor house. The first historical mention of young Jorah is during the first Grejoy Rebellion. When the walls of Pyke came down, Jorah was not far behind Thoros of Myr in charging through the breach. Indeed if asked probably both Jaime Lannister and Jory Cassel would recall his brave charge. He fought with distinction and as a reward for his bravery he was knighted that day.

Jeor knowing the character of the man he had raised and in recognition of his knighthood, Jeor left the ancient Island of Bear to take up his vows with the Knight's Watch, knowing he could trust young Jeor with the keeping and governing of not only the Island, but the family name. Normally he would have been correct, but love is anything but normal. In a story quite like Rhaegar's (see Macha not only Rhaegar makes these far reaching mistakes) love ruined Jorah's life. 

Jorah's first marriage appears to be anything but happy, from the scant evidance available I think it's fair to assume the bride was probably chosen by his father. A girl from House Glover, she continued to plague Jorah with infertility and died after he third miscarriage. Free of his wife and with no heir, Jorah sought someone new. Knowing how tragic his first union had been, is it any wonder that Jorah next married for love? Yet love would be his undoing. 

Entering a tourney at Lannisport, the young Knight looked up at the dias to behold a wonder. It was a perfect moment, something we see only in films. There she was, the most beautiful woman he had ever seen, with a hair of gold and face like a goddess, she looked upon him and smiled. Lynesse of House Hightower from the Reach. Wasting no time he asked to wear her favour and she consent. In something that can only be described as intervention from the gods, Jorah rode like a man possesed. Although a skilled swordsmen, nothing indicates that he was a skilled jouster, but in that tournament it did not matter and knight after knight went down to the fury of Jorahs lance and he crept ever closer to victory. Finally he had unhorsed the last of them as was declared champion. There was only one thing left to do, to name Lynesse the Queen of Love and Beauty. Caught up in the moment he asked for her hand in marriage, caught up in the moment, she accepted and so did her father. A young knight defeating every champion to win the hand of the woman he had fallen in love with from afar. This was the stuff singers wrote songs about, how could she refuse. 

However the fairy tale would end soon after. Lynesse came from one the most prominent and wealthy houses in one of the wealthiest regions in Westeros and Bear Island was anything but rich. Sparesly populated and cold, Lynesse soon grew miserable. Jorah tried everything within his power to sate her unquenchable thirst for luxury. Buying expensive gifts, inviting singers, taking part in tourney's, but the spark had gone and Jorah would never win one again. slowly but surely the finances of House Mormont dwindled and soon Jorah found himself facing financial ruin and even worse, on the verge of losing his beloved. Yet it appeared as if the old gods had not abandoned him, finding several poachers on his land, he decided to sell them off to slavers for a hefty price. How exactly his secret came to be known has not been told, but word of it reached the honorouble Ned Stark who immediately rushed West with his greatsword Ice in order to remove the stain from his house. So Jorah disgraced his entire house and name and fled to Essos with Lynesse. 

What was it that made him flee? Was it cowardice? An unwillingness to except the consequences of his actions? I believe it was a combination of hope and love that made him flee. A hope that now that he was free of the shackles of the imporvished Bear Island, he could seek his fortune in the rich mysterious lands of the east and thereby keep his love. 

But Essos proved to be an unsuccesful hunting ground for the exiled knight who was selling his sword to the highest bidder. Yet it was not so high that he could provide the luxuries Lynesse demanded of him. Jorah had married her for love, provided for her for love, indulged in the slave trade for love, been exiled for love and was now fighting for love. Yet he was losing the the metaphorical battle. Lynesse, finally having had enough left him for another man while he was fighting against the Braavosi on the Rhoyne. 

Heartbroken there was nothing left to do but soldier on, looking for an opportunity to somehow someday return to his beloved Bear Island. His opportunity finally came as he heard of the marriage of the exiled Princess Danearys Targeryen and Khal Drogo. If he could stay close to them, perhaps an opportunity would arise for him to go back home. However as he remained with them he found that Danearys reminded him a lot of his lost love Lynesse, young and beautiful. It appears the man had not yet learnt his lesson chosing love of a married woman above the opportunity to go home, he saved her from an assasin he had organised. 

Jorah finds himself at exactly the same place he had been ten years earlier, loving a woman who could never love him back the way he did her. Serving her every whim, giving everything he has to offer in the hopes of possibly winning her heart. Yet like with Lynesse it is a doomed love. Sadly the Bear will never win the maiden fair. 

 

"Oh! sweet she was,"
"And pure and fair,"
"The maid with honey,"
"In her hair! Her hair,"
"The maid with honey,"
"in her hair!"
The bear smelled the scent,
"On the summer air!"
"The Bear! The Bear!"
"All black and brown,"
"And covered with hair!"
"He smelled the scent,"
"On the summer air,"
"He sniffed and roared,"
"And smelled it there!"
"Honey on the summer air!"
"Oh I'm a maid,"
"And I'm pure and fair,"
"I'll never dance,"
"With a hairy bear,"
"A bear! A bear!"
"I'll never dance,"
"With a hairy bear!"

 



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Mistress Of The Coin
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Poor Jorah. What a high price to pay for love. And what a fool to jump through such hoops for a woman's wiles, yet it's understandable. I'm sure many nobles would marry the second time for love, should they get the opportunity. I know that commoners often say that you marry the first time for love, the second time for money. For a noble, I would expect them to marry the first time for duty and the second time for love. The noble fools like Robb, who break their vows to marry for love, have it backwards.

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Perhaps we will learn more from his aunt Maedge , of young Jorah's childhood and temperament.
Growing up on a small frozen island must have had some hardship but well prepared man or
woman survival skills with added core values and principles to guide them by. Jorah's father
( a lord commander of the Night's Watch ) anticipated much from his son based on the values
and later became disappointed when Jorah did not live up to his potential. I'm sure his aunt
whom remains a force in the books will shed more light on what know of her nephew. While
Jorah has distracted himself with matters of the heart, he often judges himself too harshly
when he lends perspective of his life. His melancholy state aside, he has proved a fierce
and honor bound man in a ever changing political landscape. I look forward to what else
we learn of ser Jorah Mormont , especially from someone whom has loved and cared for him.

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Lady Of The Blue Winter Rose
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WildSeed wrote:

Perhaps we will learn more from his aunt Maedge , of young Jorah's childhood and temperament.
Growing up on a small frozen island must have had some hardship but well prepared man or
woman survival skills with added core values and principles to guide them by. Jorah's father
( a lord commander of the Night's Watch ) anticipated much from his son based on the values
and later became disappointed when Jorah did not live up to his potential. I'm sure his aunt
whom remains a force in the books will shed more light on what know of her nephew. While
Jorah has distracted himself with matters of the heart, he often judges himself too harshly
when he lends perspective of his life. His melancholy state aside, he has proved a fierce
and honor bound man in a ever changing political landscape. I look forward to what else
we learn of ser Jorah Mormont , especially from someone whom has loved and cared for him.


 I too feel Aunt Maege is one of the strongest women in the North, if not Westeros altogether.  Courting did not seem to exist in Martin's world.  Jorah probaby knew little if anything of his first and second wife before they were wed.  So he observes Dani, closely and from afar and feels he knows her, he can help her, she's different from the other two.  And he has waited so long to serve a true King or Queen.  I feel he truly believe's in Dani's right to the throne of Westeros.  I also believe he would aid her greatly but alas, she is a child.  She has never known what she wanted only what she was told she should want.  Thank you for your research and time, your grace.  I enjoyed it very much. smile



-- Edited by Lyanna Stark on Monday 17th of September 2012 11:06:34 PM

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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water.  Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.

 

Priestess of R'hllor
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Aegon the Conqueror wrote:

 In a story quite like Rhaegar's (see Macha not only Rhaegar makes these far reaching mistakes) love ruined Jorah's life. 


 Never said Rhaegar was the only one. Also, I only discussed Rhaegar's from the perspective of a good ruler, and not as a regular individual. Which, incidentally, Jorah is. An unnattached, regular guy, who makes mistakes. Like we all do, like Rhaegar did. However, that was not the point of our previous debate, now was it?  



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Braavosi Water Dancer
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I must say, I don't think Jorah ever loved his wife*. I don't think he ever really knew her. What he felt for her can be described as infatuation, desire if you wish... but not love.

*I'm talking about Lynesse here.



-- Edited by Tir Airgid on Tuesday 18th of September 2012 03:40:27 PM

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High King and Conqueror of the Seven Kingdoms
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An otherworldly lust perhaps?

Coming soon, defending one of the characters everyone seems to hate. Presenting the case of a most despised man.
"The finest soldier in Westeros: Defending Randyll Tarly"

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Goddess of Tits and Wine
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I'm not sure I like your references to a poor innocent woman's inability to sustain a pregnancy leading to her eventual death as "she continued to plague Jorah with infertility and died after he third miscarriage. " how very dare she ?

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Aegon the Conqueror wrote:

An otherworldly lust perhaps?

Coming soon, defending one of the characters everyone seems to hate. Presenting the case of a most despised man.
"The finest soldier in Westeros: Defending Randyll Tarly"


 I will defend Randyll Tarly king Aegon. I have growing admiration for his staunchness in character and fair ( almost 

fatherly ) traetment of Brienne and courageous/tenacity . I find faught with his fathely skills towards Samwell tho.



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Priestess of R'hllor
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YvyB wrote:

I'm not sure I like your references to a poor innocent woman's inability to sustain a pregnancy leading to her eventual death as "she continued to plague Jorah with infertility and died after he third miscarriage. " how very dare she ?


 This. I was going to say the same thing. 



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Tir Airgid wrote:

I must say, I don't think Jorah ever loved his wife*. I don't think he ever really knew her. What he felt for her can be described as infatuation, desire if you wish... but not love.

*I'm talking about Lynesse here.



-- Edited by Tir Airgid on Tuesday 18th of September 2012 03:40:27 PM


 Definitely not a " soul mate ". Sometimes we people grope in the darkness while together, failing to see each

other plainly. I would have kicked her to the curb, what a bitch ! Jorah was either " pussy whipped " or blind

with infatuation. I'm sure it broke his heart, that hurt was well described. No one deserves that.



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High King and Conqueror of the Seven Kingdoms
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Macha wrote:
YvyB wrote:

I'm not sure I like your references to a poor innocent woman's inability to sustain a pregnancy leading to her eventual death as "she continued to plague Jorah with infertility and died after he third miscarriage. " how very dare she ?


 This. I was going to say the same thing. 


 It was not strange for men to blame their wives for infertility during Medieval times, eg Stannis with Selyse. Though with a woman as hairy as that I don't blame the man. 



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Goddess of Tits and Wine
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But Aegon you are not Medieval ! and they were your words ... I know what you mean , just think the way you put it was a little harsh ...

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High King and Conqueror of the Seven Kingdoms
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I was speaking from his POV, to help better understand why he did what he did.

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Priestess of R'hllor
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But where does Jorah refer to his first wife as "the one who plagued me with her infertility"? Just saying, a marriage plagued by infertility is not the same as "a man plagued by his wife".

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YvyB wrote:

I'm not sure I like your references to a poor innocent woman's inability to sustain a pregnancy leading to her eventual death as "she continued to plague Jorah with infertility and died after he third miscarriage. " how very dare she ?


 I'm missing something. I only remember the ball buster from the tourney, whom he later married. She had

countless affairs while Jorah left  to raise money for her lifestyle.



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The problem with Jorah is that, imo, when it comes to women he's a bit of a Sansa.

He gets smitten by the beauty of a woman, and immediately he projects onto her everything he ever dreamt his perfect woman to be. He never takes the time to get to know who she really is, what she believes in, what she wants from life. He just assumes it's obviously gonna match his expectation. And when reality begins to kick in, what does he do? He tries to bribe her into loving him. So i cannot feel sorry for him when it doesn't work. It was doomed from the start. You cannot pick up a pear tree and expect it to give apples just because you thought it was a pear tree and never stopped to check.

Now with Dany, he did take the time to get to know her, and I think in this case, probably for the first time, he has fallen hopelessly in love with her. But again, he seems prone to see her through his own "ideal woman" glasses. He seems to see women as fairytale characters. Evil witches or beautiful maidens locked in towers waiting to be rescued/protected/guided/you-name-it. He doesn't seem to see them as persons With wills, weaknesses and desires of their own that go beyond being the incarnation of his dreams. 

Of course, this is just the way I read him. Other people surely may interpret him in a different way.



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Braavosi Water Dancer
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YvyB wrote:

But Aegon you are not Medieval ! and they were your words ... I know what you mean , just think the way you put it was a little harsh ...


 This. I read too quickly the first time and it scaped me, but upon reading it again, it does sound bad.



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Braavosi Water Dancer
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Aegon the Conqueror wrote:
Though with a woman as hairy as that I don't blame the man. 

I somehow don't think someone from Bear Island would have a problem with that. Besides, he of all people could hardly complain, could he? Anyways, what I was meaning to ask: Where do we know she's unusually hairy compared with the women he grew up with? I don't remember much about his first wife.



-- Edited by Tir Airgid on Wednesday 19th of September 2012 09:19:35 AM

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“Fear is a strange soil. It grows obedience like corn, which grow in straight lines to make weeding easier. But sometimes it grows the potatoes of defiance, which flourish underground.”

― Terry Pratchett, Small Gods.

 
 

 

Lady Of The Blue Winter Rose
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WildSeed wrote:
Tir Airgid wrote:

I must say, I don't think Jorah ever loved his wife*. I don't think he ever really knew her. What he felt for her can be described as infatuation, desire if you wish... but not love.

*I'm talking about Lynesse here.



-- Edited by Tir Airgid on Tuesday 18th of September 2012 03:40:27 PM


 Definitely not a " soul mate ". Sometimes we people grope in the darkness while together, failing to see each

other plainly. I would have kicked her to the curb, what a bitch ! Jorah was either " pussy whipped " or blind

with infatuation. I'm sure it broke his heart, that hurt was well described. No one deserves that.


 Hear, hear! clap.gif Well said, Wildwoman.  My thoughts as well.



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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water.  Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.

 

Lady Of The Blue Winter Rose
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Tir Airgid wrote:

The problem with Jorah is that, imo, when it comes to women he's a bit of a Sansa.

He gets smitten by the beauty of a woman, and immediately he projects onto her everything he ever dreamt his perfect woman to be. He never takes the time to get to know who she really is, what she believes in, what she wants from life. He just assumes it's obviously gonna match his expectation. And when reality begins to kick in, what does he do? He tries to bribe her into loving him. So i cannot feel sorry for him when it doesn't work. It was doomed from the start. You cannot pick up a pear tree and expect it to give apples just because you thought it was a pear tree and never stopped to check.

Now with Dany, he did take the time to get to know her, and I think in this case, probably for the first time, he has fallen hopelessly in love with her. But again, he seems prone to see her through his own "ideal woman" glasses. He seems to see women as fairytale characters. Evil witches or beautiful maidens locked in towers waiting to be rescued/protected/guided/you-name-it. He doesn't seem to see them as persons With wills, weaknesses and desires of their own that go beyond being the incarnation of his dreams. 

Of course, this is just the way I read him. Other people surely may interpret him in a different way.


 Tir, beautiful insite! w00t.gif Right on the mark Lady!



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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water.  Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.

 

Lady Of The Blue Winter Rose
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Aegon the Conqueror wrote:

An otherworldly lust perhaps?

Coming soon, defending one of the characters everyone seems to hate. Presenting the case of a most despised man.
"The finest soldier in Westeros: Defending Randyll Tarly"


 boo.gifboo.gifboo.gifGood luck with that, your grace.



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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water.  Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.

 

High King and Conqueror of the Seven Kingdoms
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Tir loved your Sansa take on Jorah, never looked at it that way but I agree!
Not very popular with Lyanna at the moment, so allow me to explain you and Tir misunderstood me.
I was not referring to Jorah's first wife when I talked about the hairy thing, there is no mention that his first wife was hairy. Nor was I saying that there is a connection between infertility and being "furry" as Lyanna put it. I was merely pointing out that Selyse Baratheon is noted for her mustache and I quite understand Stannis' reluctance to copulate with someone as hairy as that.

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Tir Airgid wrote:

The problem with Jorah is that, imo, when it comes to women he's a bit of a Sansa.

He gets smitten by the beauty of a woman, and immediately he projects onto her everything he ever dreamt his perfect woman to be. He never takes the time to get to know who she really is, what she believes in, what she wants from life. He just assumes it's obviously gonna match his expectation. And when reality begins to kick in, what does he do? He tries to bribe her into loving him. So i cannot feel sorry for him when it doesn't work. It was doomed from the start. You cannot pick up a pear tree and expect it to give apples just because you thought it was a pear tree and never stopped to check.

Now with Dany, he did take the time to get to know her, and I think in this case, probably for the first time, he has fallen hopelessly in love with her. But again, he seems prone to see her through his own "ideal woman" glasses. He seems to see women as fairytale characters. Evil witches or beautiful maidens locked in towers waiting to be rescued/protected/guided/you-name-it. He doesn't seem to see them as persons With wills, weaknesses and desires of their own that go beyond being the incarnation of his dreams. 

Of course, this is just the way I read him. Other people surely may interpret him in a different way.


 Well struck my lady. The comparison is spot on. It doesn't excuse his spouse's behaviour however.

 

Danerys did check him, I admire that very much of her. Loose quote " ......and you ser are too familiar ".

geyt your act together man, you are Not my type !

 

Hey don't hate on all tower maidens, Rupunzil was a captive by her evil mother methinks. Beautiful hair had she.



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High King and Conqueror of the Seven Kingdoms
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So everybody waiting for the Randyll Tarly essay....
Tis forthcoming, but I need a teeny tiny break from ASOIAF to finish Azincourt.
I expect the Tarly essay to be posted in next week. I like the guy immensely and will do my best to convince you guys he is not the devil, simply just misunderstood.

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Wielder of the Baratheon BANHAMMER
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These have been great Aegon, only now had a chance to check em out. How great would it be to have the actors narrate these in character like those great Westeros logs on the Blu-ray set!

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    LYANNA STARK , we've never met you but we feel as if we have. Robert Baratheon and Rhaegar Targaryeon

loved you until death took them and your brother Ned kept your promise and secret to the grave. We are

impressed by your tenacity and beauty and the undying committment towards your child ( son ? ) . Please,

wherever you are, beg GRRM via prophetic dream to include your story in his prologue or separate goddamn

book or something....mmkay (?) The natives are restless evileye

 

Lyanna Stark is of course the younger sister of Eddard and Brandon Stark. She is described in ASOIAF and

various articles ( ie. westeros,et.al ) as " beautiful, with dark hair, grey eyes and a slender face that

characterizes the Starks ".  We also learn that she is an extremely skilled rider and fond of the Blue

Winter Rose that grew at Winterfell. She's been referred to more commonly as a tomboy and " wolf blooded ".

Her spirit was stubborn and courageous. An historic account of her tenacity was witnessed at Harrenhal

one year , where a Tourney was being held. Discovering an overwhelmed young Howland Reed, a Bannerman

of Winterfell, being bullied , she rallied to his defense by attacking the young men with a sword ( on her own).

She gained her nickname there and illustrated her badassery for all things honorable. It was there that her

brothers, Eddard, Ben Jen and Brandon made the acquaintance of 15 y/o Howland Reed. There  also

 speculation rose that young Lyanna ( 15 ? ) rode as a Mystery Knight" and later changed back in her dress.

Ironically, this is were Rhaegar Targaryeon, a young married prince, laid a Blue Rose at on her lap thus

making her controversial as well s noted for her beauty. Shortly after winning the tourney, we learned that

Rhaegar kidnapped ( a willing or consensual ? )Lyanna takes her to the infamous " Tower of Joy " in Dorne. 

 

We learn subsequently that Robert Baratheon also loved Lyanna and became betrothed to her officially via

typical arrangement by her father. Apparently Lyanna did not reciprocate his feelings and confided in Eddard

she had her doubts of Robert with his known promiscuity issues ( Robert had already fathered illegitimate

children at this time, notably Mya Stone of the Vale ) , she did not wish to marry him and considered Robert's

feelings as infatuation. Ned understood this well  and later pointed this out some years later at Lyanna's tomb

in the Winterfell Crypt. He expressed that Robert never really knew Lyanna and that they did not get on as

well as Robert imagines. Robert only saw her beauty  and never recognized her boldness and srength of will.

 

Later after the kidnapping, and rescue of Lyanna from the tower, we learn of a passionate promise sought by

Lyanna as she lay dying in Eddard's arms " Promise me Ned ". A grief stricken Ned returns to Winterfell ( we

learn from his recollection at Lyanna's request ) he doesn't remember much except the last conversation

held with his dying sister. It is rumored that Lyanna had given birth and Ned provided safe haven for him.

 

Robert Baratheon slayed Rhaegar Baratheon whom whispered Lyanna's name as he died from Robert's fatal

blow.

 

Quotes of Lyanna Stark : " Love is sweet dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature "

                                        " Promise me Ned "

Aside from now king Robert Baratheon's War Galley , named lady Lyanna, lord Mormont of Bear Island names

his only daughter ( aka known as Maege ) for Lyanna Mormont.

 

 

 



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Lady Of The Blue Winter Rose
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WildSeed wrote:

    LYANNA STARK , we've never met you but we feel as if we have. Robert Baratheon and Rhaegar Targaryeon

loved you until death took them and your brother Ned kept your promise and secret to the grave. We are

impressed by your tenacity and beauty and the undying committment towards your child ( son ? ) . Please,

wherever you are, beg GRRM via prophetic dream to include your story in his prologue or separate goddamn

book or something....mmkay (?) The natives are restless evileye

 

Lyanna Stark is of course the younger sister of Eddard and Brandon Stark. She is described in ASOIAF and

various articles ( ie. westeros,et.al ) as " beautiful, with dark hair, grey eyes and a slender face that

characterizes the Starks ".  We also learn that she is an extremely skilled rider and fond of the Blue

Winter Rose that grew at Winterfell. She's been referred to more commonly as a tomboy and " wolf blooded ".

Her spirit was stubborn and courageous. An historic account of her tenacity was witnessed at Harrenhal

one year , where a Tourney was being held. Discovering an overwhelmed young Howland Reed, a Bannerman

of Winterfell, being bullied , she rallied to his defense by attacking the young men with a sword ( on her own).

She gained her nickname there and illustrated her badassery for all things honorable. It was there that her

brothers, Eddard, Ben Jen and Brandon made the acquaintance of 15 y/o Howland Reed. There  also

 speculation rose that young Lyanna ( 15 ? ) rode as a Mystery Knight" and later changed back in her dress.

Ironically, this is were Rhaegar Targaryeon, a young married prince, laid a Blue Rose at on her lap thus

making her controversial as well s noted for her beauty. Shortly after winning the tourney, we learned that

Rhaegar kidnapped ( a willing or consensual ? )Lyanna takes her to the infamous " Tower of Joy " in Dorne. 

 

We learn subsequently that Robert Baratheon also loved Lyanna and became betrothed to her officially via

typical arrangement by her father. Apparently Lyanna did not reciprocate his feelings and confided in Eddard

she had her doubts of Robert with his known promiscuity issues ( Robert had already fathered illegitimate

children at this time, notably Mya Stone of the Vale ) , she did not wish to marry him and considered Robert's

feelings as infatuation. Ned understood this well  and later pointed this out some years later at Lyanna's tomb

in the Winterfell Crypt. He expressed that Robert never really knew Lyanna and that they did not get on as

well as Robert imagines. Robert only saw her beauty  and never recognized her boldness and srength of will.

 

Later after the kidnapping, and rescue of Lyanna from the tower, we learn of a passionate promise sought by

Lyanna as she lay dying in Eddard's arms " Promise me Ned ". A grief stricken Ned returns to Winterfell ( we

learn from his recollection at Lyanna's request ) he doesn't remember much except the last conversation

held with his dying sister. It is rumored that Lyanna had given birth and Ned provided safe haven for him.

 

Robert Baratheon slayed Rhaegar Baratheon whom whispered Lyanna's name as he died from Robert's fatal

blow.

 

Quotes of Lyanna Stark : " Love is sweet dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature "

                                        " Promise me Ned "

Aside from now king Robert Baratheon's War Galley , named lady Lyanna, lord Mormont of Bear Island names

his only daughter ( aka known as Maege ) for Lyanna Mormont.

 


 Thank you soooo much for this Wildseed.  Been waiting to read it.  My understanding of the tournament was that the winner crowned the queen of love and beauty.  All expected him to go to his wife and bestow the title on her but alas, he was enchanted by Lady Stark and placed the honor on her.  We know the room in the tower smelled of blood and roses, probably from giving birth.  Robert went to war for someone he could not control and admired from afar.  What I love about Lyanna is her stubbornness, determination, and questioning authority.  She would disobey her father and run off with the prince who was not hers to take.  Arya is said to be most like Lyanna and I believe Ned knew that when he saw Arya and Syrio practice.  He thinks back to his sister in the tournament in his memory, as he's watching Arya practice.  So much cool stuff.  Thank you again for your essay, Lady Wildseed.



-- Edited by Lyanna Stark on Wednesday 3rd of October 2012 10:43:03 PM



-- Edited by Lyanna Stark on Sunday 9th of December 2012 11:45:50 PM

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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water.  Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.

 

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The pleasure is mine my lady Stark.

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High King and Conqueror of the Seven Kingdoms
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So will my essays also be moved here? I'm quite distressed that they are missing. Worked hard on those.

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What is missing, Aegon? We simply moved the topics. No essay will be deleted. When I mentioned locking I only meant we might do something (lock, merge, rename, they were only suggestions) with your topic and Wildseed's because they sort of overlap, now that you've changed the title. But they're not going anywhere.



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At the time of writing only the last page was available.

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Aegon the Conqueror wrote:

At the time of writing only the last page was available.


 I could have sworn I saw this comment in the Non Protagonist ( non tragic ) forum. 

 

Migrating comments and posts...... and Halloween is just round the corner. Must be the full Harvest Moon



-- Edited by WildSeed on Sunday 7th of October 2012 02:56:15 AM

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No comment has 'migrated', there is no such option that I am aware of. Can we get back on topic now?

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Lady Of The Blue Winter Rose
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WildSeed wrote:
Aegon the Conqueror wrote:

At the time of writing only the last page was available.


 I could have sworn I saw this comment in the Non Protagonist ( non tragic ) forum. 

 Migrating comments and posts...... and Halloween is just round the corner. Must be the full Harvest Moon

-- Edited by WildSeed on Sunday 7th of October 2012 02:56:15 AM


 Found your essay, Wildseed.  It was wonderful, so glad to read it! biggrin



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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water.  Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.

 

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First into Battle: Defending Randyll Tarly

He has been named many things, monster, sadist, a horrible father, one of the most hated characters in ASOIAF. Yet he is one of the characters in GOT that I have the most respect for. Someone I admire and identify with. How could that be you say? How could I possibly like a man who once gave his eldest son the choice of either death or the wall? In the next couple of paragraphs I will show you. What I am saying is not that what he did was right, certainly not by today's standards, but that it is understandable. And if I don't manage to persuade you, I hope at least you are open minded enough to rethink your take upon the character. For as with all things, there is more than one side to a story.

Little is known of the early years of Randyll Tarly yet I can venture a guess on his upbringing by looking at two defining aspects of House Tarly. According to semi-canonical sources the words of House Tarly is "First in Battle" House Tarly also takes fierce pride in their possession of Heartsbane, a Valyrian Greatsword much like Ice. Those are proud harsh words that boast of something quite rare in this medieval fantasy world. Barring a few crazy characters like Robert, Jaime and young Ned (tv Stannis receives an honourable mention) battle commanders mostly led from the rear, directing the battle in a way which constituted the least amount of danger to themselves. The same went for most noblemen. Consider Robert's story of his first kill in season 1. He is quite shocked by the fact that he was attacked by a nobleman during the battle of Summerhall. Even going so far as to call him a "dumb Highborn lad. Stupid boy, he could have lingered at the edge of the battle with the smart boys..." This story of the nobleman's courage makes sense however when you consider the house he came from, House Tarly. for them their motto isn't just words, but a way of life. Courage wasn't a decision as with most men, it was an inborn trait stretching back hundreds of years. It was the very identity of the Tarlys.

Coupled with this was the sword Heartsbane. If every Tarly was brave, then only the very bravest, the very best could earn the right to wield the family Heirloom. This man would off course be the Lord of Horn Hill. These men would take fierce pride in the possession of the blade, knowing that whenever someone saw it they knew they were facing the bravest man in Westeros. Is it any wonder then that Lord Randyll Tarly, wielder of Heartsbane is known throughout Westeros as it's finest soldier and a powerful battle commander? Randyll Tarly's life has been a hard one, and that is the way he prefers it. He is the only man that can boast to having defeated Robert Baratheon in battle. He has gone through his military career without so much as a blemish. Never has a force under his command tasted defeat.

The way the entire house is centered and raised, they only understand two things, strength and courage. They are the Spartans of Westeros. They are taught to be capable, failure was not an option, you either succeeded or you died simple as that.

Spoiler

So now knowing the way that House Tarly has been structured and taught to raise their men, is it any surprise that Lord Randyll could not understand the enigma that was Samwell? Even in this enlightened and advanced age it is a common everyday thing for men to misunderstand their sons. To be unable to identify with them, to wish for their sons to change more to their likeness. How can we judge Randyll for being unable to do the very thing many of us can't in a much less sophisticated day and age.

Remember that the Tarly's have a terrifying reputation, one that they have upheld through hundreds perhaps thousands of years. Yet that reputation could be torn down within moments. The image of fat Samwell Tarly drawing Heartsbane only to run cowering from the enemy in sight of all his bannermen and lords, shattering the reputation of "first into battle" forever must have been one that had haunted Randyll's dreams for years. The humiliation and shame of a Tarly being bullied by someone as low as the Redwyne twins must have been a bitter pill to swallow for Randyll, something unheard of. In a superstitious world like Westeros, how strong could a man really be if his only son and heir was such a weakling? So Randyll responded in the only way he knew how, with strength. In his life (and I suspect that of every Tarly before him) they all responded to adversity by standing up to it, manning up and beating it into the dust. Yet the adversity thrown against his heir Samwell, the man who was to wield Heartsbane, only served to make the lad a greater coward. Randyll went even so far as to turn to Quartheen magic, yet it failed so spectacularly that the man who was supposed to fearlessly face and slay dozens of enemies, wept even when seeing the death of a chicken. Yet Lord Randyll kept on reaching out to him, perhaps out of fear, perhaps out of love.

Yet as time passed and nothing worked lord Randyll started giving up on this blight to his name finally seeing the Randyll spirit and bravery in his youngest son Dickon. Samwell instead of rising as Randyll hoped slipped farther and farther into his softer side enjoying pursuits that no true Randyll would be caught dead practicing, further showing to Lord Randyll that allowing Samwell to rule over Horn Hill and wield Heartsbane would destroy the legacy of his ancestors. This was something Randyll could under no circumstances allow. Finally at Sam's coming of age Lord Randyll's patience had reached its end. after giving his son opportunity after opportunity, every chance to turn and show his father he had what it took, Randyll had enough. Only one option remained to him, Samwell had to die. By every tradition and law of the Tarly name, Samwell had no right to life. Indeed if he had been born a Spartan, his life would have been cut short long ago. Yet Randyll did not kill him, giving his son the option of going to the Wall, thereby forsaking his claim to Horn Hill and Heartsbane. But it also gave Samwell two things, the chance at life and the chance to win some honour and to bring glory to his family name. Perhaps this was done in vain, but I think it was done in love. Harsh love, but love nonetheless. The last opportunity Samwell would have, and the one that would prove his father correct. He proved to be a Tarly after all. The faith that his father had placed in him by not killing him outright, was repaid.

Randyll Tarly is far from the perfect man, far from the perfect father, yet this makes him human. This makes him someone who has been consistent throughout his whole life. Someone who tackled each situation like he and scores of his ancestors had been raised to do, with strength and courage. And for that I cannot help but admire the man.




-- Edited by Aegon the Conqueror on Saturday 8th of December 2012 12:40:23 PM

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I enjoyed that Aegon , Thank you.

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This essay is pure gold for me. Thank you for the time you took to write it, really.

Now, let me see, because there are two things that I find absolutely fantastic in this.
1. You're asking the reader to be open minded, when Randyll himself is a perfect example of a completely close-minded character.
2. You're praising him for offering Sam the chance to live, and not kill him then and there? Bwaahahaha. I'm sorry but this is...this is just...wow.

No. Randyll is a prime example of an ignorant, horrible person (good character tho), and would have made a terrible Hand, in my opinion. You know why? Because a good Hand should choose his people well, and Randyll is hopeless at seeing true potential.
Sam IS a courageous person, and Sam *had* potential. He cried when he saw a chicken die because Sam, unlike his father, actually has a heart, and that heart motivates him. He could have been many things, if only encouraged, but his father had nothing but disdain for maesters and basically everybody who wasn't like him or shared his values. Don't tell me he "reached out" to Sam, because that was not "reaching out", that was bullying. Should Sam be thankful that he gave him his life? Since when do we start from the premise that fathers killing their sons is acceptable?! Since when is threatening to kill your own son acceptable? That's not reaching out, that's not education, that's not motivation, not by any standards, no matter the period. It's a more extreme variation of the way Cersei treats Tommen, but the essence is the same. And Sam was not even *king*. Look, by comparison, at the way Jaime treats Tommen in AFfC. That's reaching out to your son. The stakes didn't matter, the only thing that mattered is that he was his son, and he was young and frightened. And that is what makes a character human. Straying from your path and rules and principles, because you feel. You are not a machine programmed to act in a certain way. That's not "humanizing" a character. 

This reminds me of a saying we have here - "only the ox is consistent".  



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I don't think Randyll should be hand indefinitively but he should definitely help with the binding up of the war wounds. I would not go so far as to say Randyll is hopeless at seeing potential, Sam never gave even a glimmer of such while at home and Brienne does not count because although she is a freakishly good warrior, Randyll makes a good argument for why she should not be there. The fact that he saved her from raping shows he has a little bit of a heart.
Sam is courageous I agree with that yes, yet I cannot despite his development see him having the battlefield courage the Tarly's are famed for. I cannot see him leading the Night's Watch into a hand to hand battle with any enemy whatsoever.
Secondly I asked not to judge his actions by today's standards but by his upbringing and culture. There are many cultures where the father had the power of life and death over his family and it was perfectly within his rights to kill his son, the Romans, in many cases the ancient Jews, some medieval cultures, the Spartans (oh so especially the Spartans).
I asked you to be open minded because most made up their minds about him despite not knowing anything of the characters background or motivation. I stand by my point, there is no way Sam (even in his present Slayer state) could qualify to inherit Heartsbane and lead men into battle the same way the Tarly's have done for hundreds of years.

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Wow hang on a sec. The whole roman pater familias that had the right of life and death over his sons (or his slaves) is not to be taken so ad literam. As we're approaching the end of the Republic and the Imperial age these things are more and more regulated and later on there is even legislation that bans the killing of slaves, not to mention members of your own family. And I'm sorry but ASOIAF has a pronounced medieval setting, not an ancient one, so you can't make this argument of judging Tarly by "that age". Because even if this happened in the Middle Ages, and it did happen, it wasn't something that was praised, because it was completely un-Christian like. We can assume Westeros functions by the same standards.

And Aegon, you studied theology I remember, I can't recall the details but you know that story of the rich man who always gave money to the church (or the poor, I don't remember), and the poor man that had almost nothing, but from that nothingness he found a few coins to give? And his effort was the one who should be appreciated more, because his was the greater sacrifice? A fierce warrior being the first into battle - that takes some courage. But having no skills and being afraid, and still fighting to keep your friends alive, that takes so *much* more courage. Sam never showed any signs of this at home because his father never allowed him to have a true family, like Sam found in the NW. Who cares if Sam will be the one leading the men into a battle? If his father can only appreciate courage and strength by that standards, he doesn't deserve to have Sam as a son.



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The Tarly's are a separate culture on their own which is why I compared them to ancient cultures. As for the church, the world of Medieval Europe and Westeros are worlds apart when it comes to the influence of the church. It is not until the new radical high Septon is chosen that we see them having any influence on Westeros since the disbanding of the Faith Militant by Jahaerys. For example the fear of excommunication was very real in Europe, somehow I don't see that happening in Westeros pre-AFFC and I don't think many would care if they were excommunicated.
Was a poor widow who gave a copper coin, but that point is valid. However Sam could have had some crazy skills, it's not like he didn't have training, just that he didn't want to and refused to fight back. And although that is true the world never measures it that way. You will never see someone being praised who is afraid of spiders and kills one over a firefighter who rushes into a burning building. Besides I don't think the Tarly's were all born incredibly brave, the world doesn't work like that. I leave you with a quote by Roman wirter Publius Flavius Vegetius Renatus "Few men are born brave, many become so through training and force of disciple."

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Thank you Aegon, enjoyed this very much. aww  Having said that, I am not a Tarley fan and never will be.  I would like the Great John to cut his meat for him.  However, I'm not really a Sam fan either.  I appreciate your point and view and think you have many fine points.  I'm sure it took you a long time to come up with this and well done!



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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water.  Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.

 

 
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