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Topic: General book discussion thread. Heavy spoiler warning.

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Goddess of Tits and Wine
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RE: General book discussion thread. Heavy spoiler warning.
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The dragons are ready now though, and Dany only commands one. Her black and red (Targ colours) which was placed on Karl( hee hee ) 's heart.
We have already herd Jorah (all be it accidentally) command the gold and white (queen's guard colours) which was placed between Drogo's legs ... (lusty place)
And Tyrion is well placed too... Green and black (his odd eyes) placed at drogo's head. The brains of the outfit.

Also GRRM has said you don't have to be a Targ to ride a dragon.

My point being Jorah and Tyrion are in the right place now ... Dany can not ride three Dragons

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My theory is that none of Dany's "three treasons you will know" applies, or will ever apply to Jorah. He doesn't fit the bill for either blood, gold of love.
And I just can't picture anyone riding her dragons. Actually I can hardly picture Dany riding them, but I guess that'll happen none the less. However, I feel that Victarion won't be just fodder for her dragons. I think it'll be interesting to see the effect that horn of his will have on them.

Edit: Yvyb, I like that theory of yours! I've always thought the placement of the eggs around Drogo's body is significant. Nice catch! 



-- Edited by Macha on Friday 31st of August 2012 06:38:22 PM

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No, you don't have to be a Targ to ride a dragon, but without Dany around, what dragon is going to let them get on? Besides, Jorah doesn't deserve that honor. And I have a feeling Dany's not going to fall in love with Tyrion when she meets him.


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Macha wrote:

My theory is that none of Dany's "three treasons you will know" applies, or will ever apply to Jorah. He doesn't fit the bill for either blood, gold of love.
And I just can't picture anyone riding her dragons. Actually I can hardly picture Dany riding them, but I guess that'll happen none the less. However, I feel that Victarion won't be just fodder for her dragons. I think it'll be interesting to see the effect that horn of his will have on them.


 Completely forgot about Victarion.  There you go. 



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Goddess of Tits and Wine
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I haven't forgotten the horn , but i have another theory on that!
Why do you think Dany needs to fall in love with Tyrion?

Also I said Jorah has already commanded one ... when he said "Dracarys" The cream one obeyed... later when Dany said it only Drogon responded ... however the t.v. show had them all at it in THOTU... sooooo who knows lol

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YvyB wrote:

My theory on Jorah is he will ride a Dragon, as will Tyrion.


         Jorah ? Hmmmm. possible maybe. Why not Ben Plumm or young Aegon ( Connington ) or Tyrion ?



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Cary Storm wrote:
Macha wrote:

My theory is that none of Dany's "three treasons you will know" applies, or will ever apply to Jorah. He doesn't fit the bill for either blood, gold of love.
And I just can't picture anyone riding her dragons. Actually I can hardly picture Dany riding them, but I guess that'll happen none the less. However, I feel that Victarion won't be just fodder for her dragons. I think it'll be interesting to see the effect that horn of his will have on them.


 Completely forgot about Victarion.  There you go. 


                  Victarrion is indicated because of Joruman's (?) horn and of course the Targaryeon dynasty were

                  not the only dragon riders, but I still have doubts that Danerys will marry him or he take a dragon.

                  



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Goddess of Tits and Wine
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WildSeed wrote:
YvyB wrote:

My theory on Jorah is he will ride a Dragon, as will Tyrion.


         Jorah ? Hmmmm. possible maybe. Why not Ben Plumm or young Aegon ( Connington ) or Tyrion ?


 Wildseed dear friend ... I said Tyrion, look up there ^ 

I Agree they seem to like Ben plumm which is why I think he will help in the taming . Aegon has gone, he's in Westoros now and I think Vicarion's Horn may just turn out to be nothing but hot breath... either that or he'll raise a Kraken , which GRRM hinted at us seeing in the future... of course these are only my oppinions and all the dragons may snuff it!



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The wolves will come again,” said Jojen solemnly.

“And how would you be knowing, boy?”

“I dreamed it.”


Which Wolf or wolves do we think ?confuse



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WildSeed wrote:

                  Victarrion is indicated because of Joruman's (?) horn and of course the Targaryeon dynasty were

                  not the only dragon riders, but I still have doubts that Danerys will marry him or he take a dragon.

                  


The horn that Euron gave Victarion is called Dragonbinder....the Horn of Joramun (aka Horn of Winter) is the one that Mance was looking for north of the Wall.

 

YvyB wrote:

either that or he'll raise a Kraken , which GRRM hinted at us seeing in the future...


 This hint was related to a mention that the House Celtigar are said to possess a horn which can raise krakens and passing references to krakens being spotted along the Narrow Sea.

 

 



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Goddess of Tits and Wine
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Hello idkk , and welcome :) Sometimes I go off on a tangent , but do we "know" the horn Victorian has is the horn he thinks he has ?

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idkk wrote:
WildSeed wrote:

                  Victarrion is indicated because of Joruman's (?) horn and of course the Targaryeon dynasty were

                  not the only dragon riders, but I still have doubts that Danerys will marry him or he take a dragon.

                  


The horn that Euron gave Victarion is called Dragonbinder....the Horn of Joramun (aka Horn of Winter) is the one that Mance was looking for north of the Wall.

 

YvyB wrote:

either that or he'll raise a Kraken , which GRRM hinted at us seeing in the future...


 This hint was related to a mention that the House Celtigar are said to possess a horn which can raise krakens and passing references to krakens being spotted along the Narrow Sea.

 

 


         Yes, thanks, I knew something was off and (?) questioned the horn's name. Funny how some names stick.

         I wonder how big those Krakens get ? Giant Squids, Giants , Giant flying winged serpents, hmmmm..... sort

          of a theme going there.



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YvyB wrote:



The wolves will come again,” said Jojen solemnly.

“And how would you be knowing, boy?”

“I dreamed it.”


Which Wolf or wolves do we think ?confuse


         Those lines had me hoping too much, I had to put that on a shelf for later pondering and kept reading.

 

         Oh course you mentioned Tyrion as a possible rider, sorrysmile . Truly unlikely that Danerys will let him get 

         to second base, but Penney might 



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YvyB wrote:

Hello idkk , and welcome :) Sometimes I go off on a tangent , but do we "know" the horn Victorian has is the horn he thinks he has ?


 Well he's not only going off of what Euron told him, Moqorro is the one that informs him of what the Valyrian glyphs engraved on the horn mean ("I am Dragonbinder, No Mortal man should sound me and live, Blood for Fire, Fire for Blood")....how trustworthy his intentions and translation are is yet to be seen.



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idkk wrote:
YvyB wrote:

Hello idkk , and welcome :) Sometimes I go off on a tangent , but do we "know" the horn Victorian has is the horn he thinks he has ?


 Well he's not only going off of what Euron told him, Moqorro is the one that informs him of what the Valyrian glyphs engraved on the horn mean ("I am Dragonbinder, No Mortal man should sound me and live, Blood for Fire, Fire for Blood")....how trustworthy his intentions and translation are is yet to be seen.


 No mortal man, but what of mortal woman?



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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water.  Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.

 

High King and Conqueror of the Seven Kingdoms
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I'm wondering if the wolves come again do not refer to the risen Jon Snow.

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Aegon the Conqueror wrote:

I'm wondering if the wolves come again do not refer to the risen Jon Snow.


           Because Jon will rise harder and stronger ?wink



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WildSeed wrote:
Aegon the Conqueror wrote:

I'm wondering if the wolves come again do not refer to the risen Jon Snow.


           Because Jon will rise harder and stronger ?wink


 Azor Ahi, damn laptop, reborn.



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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water.  Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.

 

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Lyanna Stark wrote:



 No mortal man, but what of mortal woman?


 Noo surely not that's too LotR!!! :)



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Well he does have a thing for Red Heads, I'm betting Mel is willing if he is. DNA I can't send you a msg so I hope you read this. Re: mobile problem. Whenever I go to the full site I can't scroll down at all. I can only see the top half of the page and it refuses to scroll down further than that. So I can only acces the top half of whatever page I'm on. For instance I can read your msg but I can't scroll down to reply to it. It's never done this before last night. Si basically I can't msg or chat. The mobile app works fine though. But yeah can't access the chat or the pvt msgin from there.

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YvyB wrote:
Lyanna Stark wrote:

 No mortal man, but what of mortal woman?


 Noo surely not that's too LotR!!! :)


 Actually, I like these little twists and let's face it, they've been used in literature for centuries, and wording tricks are right up GRRM's alley.

I remember reading about the supposed riches of House Celtigar in one of Davos' chapters and going apeshit over that horn - it has to have some sort of relevance. Plus, we have direwolves and dragons, why not krakens as well? I'm all for it. 

The horn of Joramun that Mance was looking for is probably the horn that was burried with the obisidian daggers. Not sure who kept it though...Sam? 



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Goddess of Tits and Wine
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I believe Sam yes, before I read the books I remember seeing the horn on the show so I think it has some import or why show it?

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WildSeed wrote:
YvyB wrote:

Also the child of the forest says " that one is very old " not a direct quote but you get my drift....


         I remember that line and the beginnings of understanding some features of their residence and 

         inhabitants later. Methinks TWOW will give us more to clarify certain aspects. It's not like he'd

          leave us dangling for years, right ? RIGHT (?) ! 

         Coldhands likely is essential to the story and possibly Bloodraven or a Brother from the Wall.


           I'm correcting myself here, Coldhands IS Likely someone from the wall but the Three-Eyed-Crow is

            Bloodraven from all the descriptions in Wik-ASOIAF



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There's no doubt that the Crow is Bloodraven, that's actually pretty much the easiest one of all to solve.

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I know, so much to reference backward ( the continuity of factual information is retraceable ). Why
can't GRRM give me a few more hints about Coldhands and Jon's lineage, is that too much to ask ?
I'm kidding, it's an effective tool to keep readers hooks and passionate about the story.......still ):

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It's fine to do it, but don't give the riddle, wait six years and then not give the answer to the riddle.

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Okay, just need to get this out of my system.

After re-reading one of Jon's chapters from ADwD, I think it was Jon II, I'm now willing to bet anything on Jon turning against the Nights Watch, if (better yet, after) he gets ressurected in some way. It seemed to me that his character is already at a point of maximum growth as a brother and commander of the Night's Watch. He matured, he cares for his people, he refuses Winterfell, and GRRM underlines repeatedly how the Wall is his, and how Jon feels there is nothing more important for him other than that. In my opinion, his character gains nothing in terms of complexity by becoming the ultimate hero, but gains everything by veering towards the dark. If he is indeed Azor Ahai reborn, I'd love for GRRM to add a twist to the prophecy's interpretation - his Nissa Nissa, his one true love, could turn out to be a personification of the Night's Watch, or the realm he swore to defend. Not all prophecies should turn out to be true, and I honestly hope this will be one of those cases, I just can't see GRRM going down the mesianic hero route. disbelief



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That's a very interesting take, but I always thought the Nisa Nisa thing was cause of Ygritte dying.

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Hmmm..... thought provoking yes. Jon's story ( and other I guess ) is rapidly evolving and for him may
spell quite significant in impacting his future. Melissandre discerns more than she's shared with him
or he'd wish to acknowledge of his destiny. Still, when you say " dark " I think of something else
entirely according to lord Brynden. He spoke of darkness as positive whereas Mel and Rh'llor refer
to "light " as such. Brynden spoke to Bran as if the hour was late and these and other factions 
( dragons ,etc ) were already emerging to gain dominance. Jon's future is not so clear to me as it
may result but I doubt he will stay obligated to the Night's watch in the way that he has. I mean he
was about to journey southward.

"The night is day and full of terror" perhaps isn't what you imply but certainly you don't mean dark and
sinister, do you ?.



-- Edited by WildSeed on Sunday 2nd of September 2012 07:10:55 PM

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Well seeing as Jon may just die and be brought back, his oaths don't count if that happens.

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Yes , that may very well happen .

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I meant dark as in evil, but yeah, we all know GRRM's world is not black and white, so it all depends on the angle you're viewing things from.

Speaking of Bloodraven, I have yet to re-read Bran's chapters in the cave, but isn't it interesting how Brynden, who was once a Targaryen loyalist, warns Bran about dragons, as if they're something to be feared? I guess we'll know more about where his allegiance lies once we find out why exactly was he imprisoned before being sent to the Wall, but I'm in the "Bloodraven is no good" camp, especially where Bran is concerned. First, I can't figure out the connection between the CoTF and the Others, but I'm not so sure they're opposed to one another at this point. Second, I feel that Bloodraven turned against the Targaryens and the realm, and that he seeks some sort of vengeance. Sure, he could disguise it as salvation, but that's extremely relative. What is he doing in that cave, prolonging his life for so long? From what we can tell, he appeared in the form of the Three Eyed Crow not only in Bran's dreams, but in Jojen's (when he nearly died of greywater fever) and Euron's (can't remember the exact moment, but he mentions this in AFfC) as well. Any why is it the Crow so adamant in not letting Bran think about Jaime and his fall? As horrible as that was to remember, that's part of his life now, his identity. He should be encouraged to accept it, not flee from it. What Bloodraven is offering him is a life lived in darkness, far from his friends and family, and for what? Saving humanity? I don't buy that. One man's salvation often is another man's destruction. To put it bluntly, I think Bloodraven really wants someone to take his place in that cave, but I'm not so sure he'll die peacefully after that, I think he has a few plans of his own. 



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Maybe steal Bran's youth? But yeah got an icky feeling from his as well. Very interested to find out why exactly Egg sent him to the wall.

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Reading a Tyrion chapter from ADwD, and found this bit:  
(Tyrion has been given the task of putting down everything he knows about dragons, and thinks of what other sources would be available to him)

And of course there was even less chance of his coming on the fragmentary, anonymous, blood-soaked tome sometimes called Blood and Fire and sometimes The Death of Dragons, the only surviving copy of which was supposedly hidden away in a locked vault beneath the Citadel. 
What if this is what Jaqen/ The Alchemist/Pate is after? Tyrion gives three examples of books on dragons, this one being the last. It just doesn't feel like it was thrown in there for no reason.  



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Aegon the Conqueror wrote:

Maybe steal Bran's youth? But yeah got an icky feeling from his as well. Very interested to find out why exactly Egg sent him to the wall.


         You two have illustrated my feeble points above and laid them out for me to ponder from a better

          perspective. The next book probably will not put all the puzzle pieces together but a few here and

          there are beginning to shape into a plan.



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I'm so scared that GRRM just keeps writing and writing with no end in sight, he did say something about that. As brilliant as the series is it has to end before he ends.

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Aegon the Conqueror wrote:

I'm so scared that GRRM just keeps writing and writing with no end in sight, he did say something about that. As brilliant as the series is it has to end before he ends.


 Yes, and let's hope he has told someone what his thoughts are about the conclusion of the series, lest God forbid something happen to him in the meantime.



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He has confirmed that D@D knows how it ends, I just want him to start steering the series to a close.

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Guys, the conclusion is simple.

 352dvp.jpg



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You joke but I'm really afraid that the Others will rule the world. A dream of Spring. Dream!!!!! Not reality!

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And then Bran woke up and Old Nan whispered from her chair beside him "sshhh, it was all a dream..".
Then he thought this would be a fine day for climbing.

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The little Lord's been dreaming again!
I would shit my pants and kill someone!

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Macha wrote:

And then Bran woke up and Old Nan whispered from her chair beside him "sshhh, it was all a dream..".
Then he thought this would be a fine day for climbing.


 and he climbs the tower and through the window finds two houseguests, siblings, in flagrant delecti. And the brother notices him, pushes him out of the window, and he dies. 



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Meanwhile, back at the Wall...a wild Benjen Stark appears, looks around and ponders 'Hmm, I hope nothing important happened while I was away."

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A young girl prepares herself to marry a Horse Lord

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Well, a woman also does not like the Bloodraven dude/tree thing, and hopes that Bran learns what he can and gets the heck outta there, returning to Castle Black to act as Jon's clerk till Sam comes back from the Citadel. Bran's good at his letters. That's my wish, and then when Sam returns to Castle Black Bran can return to Winterfell because by that time things will have calmed down and Winterfell will belong once again to the Starks. Can't say how, but feel it would be a full circle type thing.

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MrsHghar wrote:

Well, a woman also does not like the Bloodraven dude/tree thing, and hopes that Bran learns what he can and gets the heck outta there, returning to Castle Black to act as Jon's clerk till Sam comes back from the Citadel. Bran's good at his letters. That's my wish, and then when Sam returns to Castle Black Bran can return to Winterfell because by that time things will have calmed down and Winterfell will belong once again to the Starks. Can't say how, but feel it would be a full circle type thing.


 I also agree that the whole man/tree thing is entirely unpleasant and kind of went in an entirely different direction I expected or even would have desired. 



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"I dreamt I saw a shadow with a burning heart butchering a golden stag, aye. I dreamt of a man without a face, waiting on a bridge that swayed and swung. On his shoulder perched a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from his wings. I dreamt of a roaring river and a woman that was a fish. Dead she drifteeyes openedd, with red tears on her cheeks, but when her eyes opened, oh, I woke from terror."

ASoS, page 302, Arya chapter, campfire near High Heart.

I know what most of this is but I haven't figured out the swaying bridge or the drowned crow.



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The swaying bridge is the one at Pyke, that part of the dream refers to Balon's death at the hands of a Faceless Man hired by Euron (Crow's eye - drowned crow).

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The second part about the woman who was a fish is Catelyn Tully being ressurected by Thoros as Lady Stoneheart.

So GRRM says Talisa isn't Jeyne Westerling or the daugther of a Lannister Bannerman, well there goes all the theories about Tywin sending her to rip the Frey Stark alliance apart.

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AS private parts we are to the gods, they play with us for their sport. 

 
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