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Wielder of the Baratheon BANHAMMER
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Melisandre
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The enigmatic muse to Stannis was much of a cypher to me, until her own character POV in the last book.

I think this is a smart way to provide insight into the mysterious shadowbinders, it was also interesting to

see how unruly magic is, and even when it seems she wields it easily, she is not quite in control of it.

My question always was, what is she going for in the end? Her interactions with Jon Snow were interesting and should 

play a big part in his story in the next book.



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High King and Conqueror of the Seven Kingdoms
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I really want to see how she is going to handle Stannis when she realises he wasn't Azor Ahai all along.

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Priestess of R'hllor
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This may sound crazy, but I really don't think Stannis will suffer at the hands of Melisandre. Either he's going to bite the dust even before she realizes it, or even if she does, why would she hurt him in any way? The fault lies with her, after all. I know Stannis seems doomed because of her but since when does GRRM play by out expectations? 

Anyway, I'll come back with some quotes I found interesting while re-reading her first chapter in ADwD. 



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High King and Conqueror of the Seven Kingdoms
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I was thinking more along the lines of him hurting her.

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Priestess of R'hllor
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Ok, some things that stood out in ADwD so far:

- Then the towers by the sea, crumbling as the dark tide came sweeping over them, rising from the depths.  

When Jon asks her about it, she claims that the towers represent Eastwatch, though she dismisses it at first - she's seen Eastwatch and it didn't look like that. I know there are many theories regarding these towers, but I'd go for the obvious choice in this case, which is Pyke. Earthquake, tsunami, kraken? Take your pick. Aeron and Damphair are certifiably nuts so I guess anything's possible. 

- "...shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist, bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing."

She concludes that the skulls represent death, and that seems pretty spot on, however I found the "skulls that turned to mist" bit interesting because...what else turnes to mist? Answer: the White Walker that Sam killed in ASoS. She also sees skulls all around Snow, and the easiest explanation for that is that she sees his assassins, but she mentions "a thousand skulls", which seems to be somewhat similar to "a thousand red eyes" that obviously stand for Bloodraven. I don't know how this all could fit together but I find this whole Jon&Mel - Bran&Bloodraven double date really promising, in terms of plot. 

The "bodies locked together in lust" bit seems a bit out of place, I guess the obvious interpretation would be Dany & Daario but I don't care enough to be bothered. smile 

- Also, I didn't catch that on my  first read, but Melisandre literally bleeds while gazing into the flames in her first chapter. 

Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking.  

She mentions later that her sacrifices have been great in order to gain her powers, and that preserving Rattleshirt's glamour while he burned in Mance's place nearly burned her alive. Somehow, I don't think she has that much to live. If she does ressurect Jon somehow, I think that'll be her last act. 

- Finally, how come I didn't notice Mance and Mel (possibly) had sexy times? Here's Mance talking about his glamour: 

"I feel it when I sleep. Warm against my skin, even through the iron. Soft as a woman's kiss. Your kiss. But sometimes in my dreams it starts to burn, and your lips turn into teeth. " 

Those crazy kids. 

PS: Melisandre only has one "S". wink



-- Edited by Macha on Wednesday 12th of September 2012 10:20:47 AM

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High King and Conqueror of the Seven Kingdoms
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Seems ADWD is more complex than I thought on my first reading. One cannot simply read these books once.

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Mistress of the Rookery
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Macha wrote:

- Finally, how come I didn't notice Mance and Mel (possibly) had sexy times? Here's Mance talking about his glamour: 

"I feel it when I sleep. Warm against my skin, even through the iron. Soft as a woman's kiss. Your kiss. But sometimes in my dreams it starts to burn, and your lips turn into teeth. " 


eyepopping.gif didn´t catch that either.

I think Melisandre is a fraud but a very dangerous one. And no, Stannis will fall on his own terms. 



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Priestess of R'hllor
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Not sure about the fraud thing, but the thought did cross my mind when I was re-reading last night and found that she mentions her powders and how they came in handy, but she admits they're nothing more than tricks (for creating fire, or even lust). However when she talks about herself, she obviously thinks her powers are above those of other priests, and even more powerful at the Wall. So I think she definitely has genuine powers as well - how else would we explain the shadow-baby otherwise?.
Hmmm, Ciaran Hinds and Carice Van Houten. Hmmmm.

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Mistress of the Rookery
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Macha wrote:

Not sure about the fraud thing, but the thought did cross my mind when I was re-reading last night and found that she mentions her powders and how they came in handy, but she admits they're nothing more than tricks (for creating fire, or even lust). However when she talks about herself, she obviously thinks her powers are above those of other priests, and even more powerful at the Wall. So I think she definitely has genuine powers as well - how else would we explain the shadow-baby otherwise?.
Hmmm, Ciaran Hinds and Carice Van Houten. Hmmmm.


 not saying she´s a fraud because  has no powers, I think she recently realized that her powers are real  (I do remember what you said from ADWD), but to where she is now, she  has come without them. Makes sense?



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I am always intrigued by Melisandre and more often what she sees and thinks in private or in talks
with Jon Snow. When introduced, I quickly grew weary of her hero worship to Stannis and left a bitter
taste in my mouth after the scene with maester Cressen. Mel is deep yet somehow I am not certain
she is fully wise to her role in the upcoming events. As a follower and priestess of Rh'llor, should she
be better aware of the Seers ( COTF ), the blood of the dragon , and other Mystic influences ( puzzle
pieces ) ? Or typical zealot in ignoring existence of those entities in order to devote herself to her
Spirit God ? Is she weaker than Moquerro ? Thoros of Myr ? How does her gift or faith measure up and
was there a warning about her ( bringing on Dark influences with impact Light ) ? Something tells me
with her placement, in respect to Jon, she remains an essential character. Will GRRM kill her off before
we understand fully ourselves ?

I am curious of the term " Shadow Binders " mentioned by ser Noye above, was this quoted somewhere
in the books ? Being that neither Thoros or Moquerro has done this, are you saying that this a
particular or special gift that Melisandre alone possesses ??????

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Lady Of The Blue Winter Rose
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andrea wrote:
Macha wrote:

Not sure about the fraud thing, but the thought did cross my mind when I was re-reading last night and found that she mentions her powders and how they came in handy, but she admits they're nothing more than tricks (for creating fire, or even lust). However when she talks about herself, she obviously thinks her powers are above those of other priests, and even more powerful at the Wall. So I think she definitely has genuine powers as well - how else would we explain the shadow-baby otherwise?.
Hmmm, Ciaran Hinds and Carice Van Houten. Hmmmm.


 not saying she´s a fraud because  has no powers, I think she recently realized that her powers are real  (I do remember what you said from ADWD), but to where she is now, she  has come without them. Makes sense?


 Agree with both of these theories.  She's thinking she should have brought more powders, but there is more to her than that. I have yet to see her save anyone yet, Thoros saves Beric how many times? The witch at their camp has the "future sight", not sure exactly what she is, we'll see how she deals with Jon.  I'll form more of an opinion after that.



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Defender Of The Realm
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I see someone quoted some excellent parts from ADwD's Melisandre chapters. I particularly love this one:

"I'm asking R'hllor to show me Azor Ahai and all I see is Snow."

We'll have to forgive her slowness on this one. It will come to her.. eventually. Martin must have laughed at the huge interpretation one can get from that.

As for Melisandre being a fake, if you permit a different view, I don't think she is. It think she has told it better to Lord Snow than I ever could explain it. She has these visions, and the book events really match them one by one, but interpreting them correctly is a different matter.

The Red Lady seems to know the limits to her understanding these visions but when she cannot give proper explanations (like for example where the next strike will be, and where waters flood towers) she bends them in such way to serve her purpose. I believe she also knows that her blind wish to find Azor Ahai and for her to be right in Stannis being the reborn saviour is wrong, but she won't admit it even to herself. Aemon got that one right in my opinion.


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Macha wrote:

Ok, some things that stood out in ADwD so far:

- Then the towers by the sea, crumbling as the dark tide came sweeping over them, rising from the depths.  

When Jon asks her about it, she claims that the towers represent Eastwatch, though she dismisses it at first - she's seen Eastwatch and it didn't look like that. I know there are many theories regarding these towers, but I'd go for the obvious choice in this case, which is Pyke. Earthquake, tsunami, kraken? Take your pick. Aeron and Damphair are certifiably nuts so I guess anything's possible. 

- "...shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist, bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing."

She concludes that the skulls represent death, and that seems pretty spot on, however I found the "skulls that turned to mist" bit interesting because...what else turnes to mist? Answer: the White Walker that Sam killed in ASoS. She also sees skulls all around Snow, and the easiest explanation for that is that she sees his assassins, but she mentions "a thousand skulls", which seems to be somewhat similar to "a thousand red eyes" that obviously stand for Bloodraven. I don't know how this all could fit together but I find this whole Jon&Mel - Bran&Bloodraven double date really promising, in terms of plot. 

The "bodies locked together in lust" bit seems a bit out of place, I guess the obvious interpretation would be Dany & Daario but I don't care enough to be bothered. smile 

- Also, I didn't catch that on my  first read, but Melisandre literally bleeds while gazing into the flames in her first chapter. 

Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking.  

She mentions later that her sacrifices have been great in order to gain her powers, and that preserving Rattleshirt's glamour while he burned in Mance's place nearly burned her alive. Somehow, I don't think she has that much to live. If she does ressurect Jon somehow, I think that'll be her last act. 

- Finally, how come I didn't notice Mance and Mel (possibly) had sexy times? Here's Mance talking about his glamour: 

"I feel it when I sleep. Warm against my skin, even through the iron. Soft as a woman's kiss. Your kiss. But sometimes in my dreams it starts to burn, and your lips turn into teeth. " 

Those crazy kids. 

PS: Melisandre only has one "S". wink



-- Edited by Macha on Wednesday 12th of September 2012 10:20:47 AM


I agree with you on the instances when Mel bleeds. Somehow they are all connected to her making a sacrifice, or something prompts her to bleed. I read a very sound and textual evidence based theory on the Fire and Ice forum it was, I think, where the person proposes that the "Red Star Bleding" will actually be Mel herself, crying tears of blood when Jon is ressurected. The basis of the theory is that Mel is actually the daughter of Shiera Seastar (remember her?) and Bloodraven (gives alot of textual evidence for support, plus the time frame works out). So she herself has the Kingsblood needed to be sacrificed. The nine dead rangers she sees staring with Red Eyes is actually her misinterpretation of the nine Weirwood trees where Jon gave his vows, the proposed place of ressurection. The Red star connection is made because of her eyes that are constantly described as red stars. So it will actually be the red stars (her eyes) that bleed when the moment of Azor Ahai's rebirth comes. I am giving a summary here of a larger and more complex but convincing theory, but this ties in well with my own theory (and others') that suggest that Jon will spend a certain amount of time inside Ghost, where he will discover his true identity with the help of Bran and the Weirwood network, before being resurrected. Another interesting hint someone pointed out, is the fact that the bodies put into the ice cells by Jon in ADWD stay dead because they CAN'T turn inside the Wall, which hopefully means, Jon's dead body won't turn either if he is buried in the ice. But what happens to his body will largely depend on who takes charge at the Wall after the massacre. Off topic, but had to post. And I could be completely wrong, ofcourse :)



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Defender Of The Realm
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To use a ASoIaF famous line: Seven help me, Mags!

Can you pass me the link to this huge theory (you can send me a PM if you don't want to go all off topic). I love this stuff! Maybe they'll convince me Jon is NOT suffering from a little bit of death by repeated stabbing. I supposed him to be saved by Melisandre; though if I were her I'd let him suffer a bit for not trusting her (can the dead's soul suffer though? existential questions...)

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Knight
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TormundsWoman wrote:

To use a ASoIaF famous line: Seven help me, Mags!

Can you pass me the link to this huge theory (you can send me a PM if you don't want to go all off topic). I love this stuff! Maybe they'll convince me Jon is NOT suffering from a little bit of death by repeated stabbing. I supposed him to be saved by Melisandre; though if I were her I'd let him suffer a bit for not trusting her (can the dead's soul suffer though? existential questions...)


All good questions of courseaww

 

There's this one: https://www.google.co.za/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&ved=0CFQQrAIwBA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fasoiaf.westeros.org%2Findex.php%2Ftopic%2F96824-sbm-mel-the-red-star-bleeding-melony-seastar-part-2-has-been-added-on-pg9%2F&ei=MvDsUvTDNYK3hQfn0oGwBQ&usg=AFQjCNF70k4gx6FhiGvctad8B0_watwJyg&sig2=dVBH9utDi3kbJwwKsqqu_A&bvm=bv.60444564,d.Yms 

And then this one, which is more particularly about Jon and his relationship with Ghost and what this foreshadows for both of them, but also related to Mel in some way: https://www.google.co.za/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&ved=0CFMQrAIwBA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fasoiaf.westeros.org%2Findex.php%2Ftopic%2F99729-jon-snows-fate-ghost-ice-cell%2F&ei=MvDsUvTDNYK3hQfn0oGwBQ&usg=AFQjCNFna6k_lE25AlwR-u8wCvJuxJ-BuA&sig2=1xZbAOK8GI7yXHdzApUQyQ&bvm=bv.60444564,d.Yms

 

Enjoydance

 



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Defender Of The Realm
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Mags, I appreciate it. Looked over the first one and I have to say I did NOT see that one coming LOL. I never made the connection between Melisandre and Bloodraven's woman. When taken out of context it is rather strange Martin would use the same way of describing the two.

But that would make my red lady a very old woman indeed. Have to think on that glamour thing! Maybe she really IS Rhaegar, and I was wrong all along.



-- Edited by TormundsWoman on Saturday 1st of February 2014 01:39:21 PM

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Knight
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I think that's exactly the reason she glamours herself, because she is so old.

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Defender Of The Realm
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Mags, now I'm going to have to read the Mel's chapters all over again from ADwD! I thought her ruby pulses only when using glamour, as seen in the Mance's case. I was joking with a friend about her ruby always pulsing, hence she's always using glamours but that was just a joke! teehee



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Knight
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She has only one chapter in aDwD, and it forms interesting parallels with the prologue. The rest of the time you can see her from Jon's pov. My pdf version has so many notes and highlights of her chapter and Jon's chapters, it's not even funny :)

But the glamour is just speculation on my part. I could be wrong.

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Wielder of the Baratheon BANHAMMER
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Heh Mags, I just realized that "here we stand" are the words of House Mormont. It was also what Ser Jorah said when he confronted Viserys when he was trying to steal Dany's dragon eggs....interesting.

Anyways, back to topic. If Melly Sanders dies while reviving Jon, how will Arya kill her in the Tv show "ruh-oh"! freakout

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Knight
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@ Donal: was that line from the books? Never caught that. That's cool. :)

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Priestess of R'hllor
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OT: I think that line that Jorah says was show-only, since in the books we only have Dany's POVs and she was not present at the time. Nice little bit though, I always loved that they found a way to squeeze that in.

@Don - Haha, I don't think Arya's gonna complete half her list, not to mention all of it. I think she already dropped the Hound from it in the books, no? Joffrey - obviously scratched, Cersei - highly unlikely, and so on. Mel is safe from Arya, I'd say.

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Defender Of The Realm
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Mags Giantsbabe wrote:

She has only one chapter in aDwD, and it forms interesting parallels with the prologue. The rest of the time you can see her from Jon's pov. 


 That's actually what I meant when I said Mel's chapters, but came out wrong teehee. All chapters where she shows up, not really only her POV one.

My Kindle highlights for Melisandre chapters are huge. That's not only because I highlighted the visions or the interaction with Jon Snow, but because I really like her so everything I thought was important about her is either underlined or having notes. But I might just as well read the whole thing than take a look at all my ideas, because they are too chaotic.



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Knight
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I can't remember if I posted them, but the Ice and Fire forums have some cool theories about Mel. In any case can't wait for Jon/ Mel Kit/Carice interaction in season 5.biggrin



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^those scenes should be great
That and some Jon/Stannis bro love

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Defender Of The Realm
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Mags, I love Mel theories freakout read a few on reddit and Westeros. The Bloodraven and Shiera Seastar was super interesting. I do expect some sparks at the Wall between Lord Snow and Melisandre! dance totally worth the wait.

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