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Goddess of Tits and Wine
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Cold hands Spoilers
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I've been reading a few background things about Bloodraven and such the like , it's occured to me that we don't need to know who Coldhands is at all!

We know Brynden Rivers , went to the wall with Aemon  and rose to Commander.

We know Coldhands was a member of the Night's watch.

It is widely speculated that Brynden as hand was into dark magics .... a thousand eyes and one.

We know that in future years a certain Knight has been reanimated through dark arts.

It is now my belief Coldhands is an unfortunate , such as this .A reanimated Nightswatch man .



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Priestess of R'hllor
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One issue that puzzles me is that Coldhands is not your typical wight. He can communicate and it seems that he's conscious of his own identity. He doesn't have the ice blue eyes of the wights, so we can assume that Bloodraven's magic is different from the one employed by the Others.
The question is, why was he reanimated? Was finding and delivering Bran his first and only task?



-- Edited by Macha on Tuesday 25th of September 2012 11:52:04 AM

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Goddess of Tits and Wine
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Unfortunately we need more info to answer these things ... but I do think maybe he has had him as a "pet" for a while ... no I don't see him as an ordinary wight... could he even be a vassal for Blood raven himself ... enabling him to walk about as Bran does with Hodor?

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Braavosi Water Dancer
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If he wasn't reanimated by an Other but another (bad pun, I know) who is delving into simmilar arts, that would explain why he's so different from the other wights. Maybe to serve as an emisary, like Yvy said. But if he was very old, his reanimation must have served a purpose not just now but long ago. Hmmm...

Do we know of any instances were someone was contacted by means that could point to Coldhands in the years prior to Bran's encounter?



-- Edited by Tir Airgid on Tuesday 25th of September 2012 12:10:22 PM

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Priestess of R'hllor
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I only know that the Three Eyed Crow appeared in Jojen's and Euron's dreams, but that doesn't indicate anything related to Coldhands.
While I like YvyB's theory about Bloodraven warging Coldhans, my impression remains that Coldhands knows who he is and when he speaks, he speaks as himself, not as Bloodraven. But the problem and "ethics" of warging people has been brought to our attention more in ADwD, so that theory remains very plausible. Ugh, I need to know how Bloodraven ended up in that cave.

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Goddess of Tits and Wine
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I know Macha ! From the Commander to tree hugger ... one big step for mankind !

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Grand Maesterbator
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Sorry. Remind me, is Brynden Rivers Bloodraven and how do we know he came to the wall with Aemon?

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Priestess of R'hllor
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Yes, Bloodraven and Brynden Rivers are one and the same person. As to his coming to the wall, I believe Master Aemon himself mentioned it in one of Sam's chapters in AFfC.
Hmm, question, because I didn't pay attention to this - was Brynden Rivers on that list of previous commanders that Sam mentions at one point?



-- Edited by Macha on Tuesday 25th of September 2012 01:04:04 PM

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Braavosi Water Dancer
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I wasn't thinking of warging but more like, reanimating him with or without a modicum of control over your reanimated creature.

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Goddess of Tits and Wine
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Macha wrote:

Yes, Bloodraven and Brynden Rivers are one and the same person. As to his coming to the wall, I believe Master Aemon himself mentioned it in one of Sam's chapters in AFfC.
Hmm, question, because I didn't pay attention to this - was Brynden Rivers on that list of previous commanders that Sam mentions at one point?



-- Edited by Macha on Tuesday 25th of September 2012 01:04:04 PM


 Gosh I can't remeber , I'd have to check ...



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Lord Bannerman Of The Smileys
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Well, we've seen that the dead can return to life in some way or another, and have some sort of personal agency, and that there are different degrees, depending on the magic and length of time dead, whether it be Beric Dondarrion or Catelyn Stark or Ser Robert Strong. Why cannot someone reanimated by such means not be as old as that?

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High King and Conqueror of the Seven Kingdoms
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Bryden RIvers was indeed a lord commander of the wall. He came to the Wall as part of the Honour Guard for Aemon. Still want to know what he did that made Egg send him there in the first place.

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Goddess of Tits and Wine
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You mean why he was in the black cells? Naughtyness I 'll wager .... of the black arts kind

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High King and Conqueror of the Seven Kingdoms
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Since when is magic illegal?
I actually liked him in the novellas, never got the impression that he was evil (evil of course here being against the ruling monarchy) I mean he quite the Targeryen Loyalist.

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Goddess of Tits and Wine
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Doesn't Egg have a major dislike for him tho ?

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Children Of The Forest VP
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Aegon the Conqueror wrote:

Bryden RIvers was indeed a lord commander of the wall. He came to the Wall as part of the Honour Guard for Aemon. Still want to know what he did that made Egg send him there in the first place.


 This point plagues my thoughts since finishing " The Mystery Knight " and falling far short of what happens next.

I'm certain that GRRM will pick up lord Brynden's story but when ? There is so much ground to cover before Egg

becomes king and sends Brynden Rivers aka Bloodraven to the Wall. 

 

There may be many speculative attempts about filling in the gaps but GRRM remains the Grand Maester of the Pen.

 

The ColdHands Theory however  is very much at stage One because we only encounter or become acquainted in

ADWD/ book 5. In the same book there is confirmation that The Three Eyed Crow ( Warg persona ) = Bloodraven

= Brynden Rivers = Greenseer. Therefore NOT Coldhands whom separately accompanied Bran, Jojen, Meera and

Hodor to the lair. It is remotely possible however that as Greenseer, astral projection may encompass more than the

already expressed forms that we've been made aware of , but doubtful as we've no proof.

 

The ColdHands speculation is a migain in the making. It's worst than searching for Horcruxes. At least it makes for

a exhilarating Red Herring tautological debate. I've done the mental pretzel routine. Other theorists have 

convinced me to save what remains of my neurons. Thanks alot GRRM furious



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Priestess of R'hllor
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I'd venture to say Coldhands might prove to be an essential piece in explaining the connection between Bloodraven, the Children and the Others. The fact that he seems to be an agent for The Children or for Bloodraven, who's definitely been central to Bran's development as a character ever since the early stages of AGoT - and a case could be made for Bran to be the main character in the series - this all points to Coldhands having if not an essential role to play, then at least a major symbolic value. To me he feels like someone who's still alive because he bears some sort of curse. I think it's interesting that both he and Bloodraven were initially in the Night's Watch. Granted, Bloodraven may have occasionally warged Mormont's raven, and Coldhands protected Sam and Gilly from the wights, but somehow it doesn't feel like Bloodraven & Co (and here I include the CoTF) seem too preoccupied with the war against the Others. Why is he so eager to teach Bran, and why does Coldhands names himself as Bran's "monster"? Questions, questions.

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Goddess of Tits and Wine
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"and why does Coldhands names himself as Bran's "monster"? " says Macha

Where's this bit Macha? I can't remeber him saying that ... when they are traveling together?


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Priestess of R'hllor
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It's in ADwD, Bran, Jojen and Meera are talking about Coldhands and Bran calls him a monster, to which Coldhands replies "Your monster, Brandon Stark."



-- Edited by Macha on Tuesday 25th of September 2012 06:44:08 PM

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Goddess of Tits and Wine
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Oh yes ! Totally remember now .... interesting ...

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Children Of The Forest VP
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Macha wrote:

I'd venture to say Coldhands might prove to be an essential piece in explaining the connection between Bloodraven, the Children and the Others. The fact that he seems to be an agent for The Children or for Bloodraven, who's definitely been central to Bran's development as a character ever since the early stages of AGoT - and a case could be made for Bran to be the main character in the series - this all points to Coldhands having if not an essential role to play, then at least a major symbolic value. To me he feels like someone who's still alive because he bears some sort of curse. I think it's interesting that both he and Bloodraven were initially in the Night's Watch. Granted, Bloodraven may have occasionally warged Mormont's raven, and Coldhands protected Sam and Gilly from the wights, but somehow it doesn't feel like Bloodraven & Co (and here I include the CoTF) seem too preoccupied with the war against the Others. Why is he so eager to teach Bran, and why does Coldhands names himself as Bran's "monster"? Questions, questions.


 I  have no proof but I do not believe lord Brynden as sole warg to all the ravens, including Old Bear's. 

 

The Ravens are very intriguing to me and I'd put aside that thought to float among mine others within

my bowl of saved /imcomplete thoughts and theories ( think Dumbledore's memory seive ). These 

black winged creatures may represent long ago Brothers of the Night Watch for ages ago. They are

ever protective of the ranging brothers and not only Bran and his small entourage. They saved

Samwell and Gilly ( accompanied by Coldhands of course ) and often made appearances when Wildlings

traveled unthreateningly through the frozen North. Old Bear's raven was extra special and kept

special watch on the Lords Paramount of the Night's Watch. 

 

It is not unusual as some warriors and soldiers alike have noted that the spirit of their fallen fellows

of alms ( arms ) fight alongside them when a repeated battle stirs up among known enemies.

Tolkien's Lord of the Ring Trilogy and various battle stories shared by various soldiers have given

accounts of this . Much as their troop psychologist would love to discount, there has been an eerie

story in common of soldiers account of this. It's not a far writer's stretch to assert this perspective

into a story of warriors against a known enemy threat.

 

Whether ColdHands prove essential or not would wholely depend on additional clues we must

continue to unravel but likely from upcoming insights from GRRM. AND he'd better give us 

some Corn soon or I'm gonna get peckish in more than one fashion furious.

 

The reply that Coldhands made to Bran's comment gave me a different perspective than him owing

only Bran particular allegience ( totally sticking my ass out on this one folks ), I presumed the 

comment referred to being of service to his fellow Brother's of the Night's Watch ( the Crows and/or

Ravens ) including lord Brynden ( aka Bloodraven ). Bran may view him as a monster physically, 

and even mistrust him as he did initially. That's a pragmatic response if anything. I believe Leaf

gave some suggestion ( but not a whole answer ) of Coldhand's nature of alliance to them.



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High King and Conqueror of the Seven Kingdoms
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WildSeed I like this theory about the soldiers very much!!!!

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Knight
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It's been a topic of some thought for this woman also, what is the nature of the Bloodraven's teachings and what does he really want? Cold Hands appears to be some type servant of his IMO, but what is the nature of his service? Will he be there if Bran goes back to the Wall at some point? Will Bloodraven and Cold Hands prevent Bran from leaving? There's so many ways this could go, a woman is anxiously awaiting the next book!!!!

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Priestess of R'hllor
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This is a very interesting theory indeed, Wildseed.
WildSeed wrote:

Old Bear's raven was extra special and kept special watch on the Lords Paramount of the Night's Watch. 


But I wonder, can we really call ravens as being protective towards the Watch? The only time when that happens is when Coldhands rescues Sam and Gilly, and the ravens interviened at his/Bloodraven's command. But Mormont's raven didn't hesitate to peck at his face once he was dead. The raven's age is indeed peculiar. How many years have passed since Bloodraven was appointed Lord commander, I wonder. 



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Ya know Macha you make a very good point that most of us don't take in to account; the animal
retains it's natural state or form. A Warg has the ability to influence it's host which differs from
completely becoming that animal or entity. The SkinChangers seem to have perfected this ability
however not without consequences. Jojen repeatedly warned Bran of losing himself that way. I
would ponder that the COTF have witnessed the effects for some time and observing the impact
made of their living a normal life.

For want it intends, warging proves to be a useful tool when needed and leaving the host unharmed.

These older Ravens are interesting as they may be Night Bros /SkinChangers of a higher form. I
would not rule out there natural tendencies completely erased, they may and eat or just peck.
Coldhands is a Wight so he had no use of food, poor guy.



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Lord Bannerman Of The Smileys
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Would someone remind me where the theory Benjen = (body of) Coldhands comes from and what supports it? Because other than "hope that Benjen is coming back" is the only thing I can figure out, and it really doesn't work out that way anyway.

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Priestess of R'hllor
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That's usually it, Cary. I thought the same thing when I first finished ASoS. And the fact that he's/was a brother of the NW. And helps Bran....sort of. And wears a hood and scarf, which makes many readers believe he's hiding his true identity for some reason.

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Goddess of Tits and Wine
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I agree , it's GRRM's way of doing things ... little hints and red herrings ... then BAM ! Ha ha fooled you all !



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Lady Of The Blue Winter Rose
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YvyB wrote:

I agree , it's GRRM's way of doing things ... little hints and red herrings ... then BAM ! Ha ha fooled you all !


 Yep, it's maddening freakout



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Knight Of The Sunset Sea
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I have been led on many a wild goose chase by GRRM. But I think I have this one right. No matter what Machachachachca thinks.


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Grand Maesterbator
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I love to rub my nipples when my hands are cold and whisper Benjens name...

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Knight Of The Sunset Sea
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I have Coldhands as well. And three nipples!

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And so he spoke and so he spoke

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Priestess of R'hllor
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So, since they released this, my Coldhands = The Night's King theory is set in stone. Now I just need Coldhands in the show.



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