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Mistress Of The Coin
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Tywin Lannister ( No Book Spoilers )
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This post isn't really about Tywin Lannister.  It's about all of the Lannisters, but Tywin is at the crux of who the Lannisters truly are.  I learned Rains of Castomere last week on my cello, and have spent far too much time listening to it during that process.  The lyrics tell you all you need to know about Tywin Lannister.  Someone refused to bend the knee, so he erased them from Westeros.  It would undoubtedly have been a better move in many ways to install a family member as the new Lord of Castomere (assuming he had that power...I don't know that he did).  Instead he sent a message to anyone who ever considers fucking with him that he is an utterly ruthless adversary.  He restored his family's place in Westeros with a single act that still echoes through history.  Fear is his chosen method of maintaining power.  In season 2, he reveals that his actions at Castomere were a deliberate attempt to send a message of fear to those who would oppose him.  In contrast, his pragmatic attitude towards Gendry, Arya and the other prisoners at Harrenhall, shows that he is not unnecessarily cruel.  He understands the use of fear as a tool, and he knows when to wield it.   

Tywin's brilliant intellect combined with his coldblooded disregard for those he must destroy to achieve his goals make him the most formidable of characters.  And yet, his repartee with Arya demonstrates a certain humanity underneath the hard exterior, especially with respect to his children.  His willingness to allow Arya to maintain her fictional background exhibits a lack of the sadistic tendencies that are so apparent in his grandson, Joffrey.  Tywin believes that Arya's lies are harmless, so he lets them slide.  Of course, his carelessness towards her may ultimately be his undoing. 

Cersei has learned the lesson her father has sought to instill in his children.  Her simple demonstration to Petyr Baelish and her words "power is power" establish her understanding that unflinching ruthlessness in the face of a challenger imparts the fear she requires to maintain power.  The fact that she is a woman is the only factor I can see that has prevented her from following closely in her father's footsteps.  She clearly was raised to understand politics, not warfare.  Were she male, she may well have ended up as another Tywin.

As demonstrated in their father-son chat in season 1, Jaime has failed to learn this most basic lesson from his father.  I don't know whether it's a lack of ruthlessness, a lack of ambition or a glimmer of humanity that distinguishes Jaime from Tywin.  Jaime can certainly be ruthless, as evinced by his attempted murder of Bran to protect his relationship and his murder of his cousin to assist in his escape.  But his actions are small in scope when compared to Tywin's merciless brutality.  Jaime's callous and coldblooded actions were motivated by selfish and immediate desires.  Tywin's actions are motivated by the love of his family and his desire to secure its place in Westeros in the long term.  Tywin's lessons appear to be lost on Jaime (and so much the better, I say).  Jaime would need to evolve tremendously before he would have the vision, discipline and determination to follow in his father's footsteps.

Tyrion has a clear understanding of his father's tactics on an intellectual lever.  And he unambiguously rejects them in his response to Marillion at the inn during season 1.  His humanity and his compassion for human suffering lead him to implicitly reject cruelty and brutality for the sake of power.  Nonetheless, he is a pragmatist, unlike too many of the other characters, which may lead him to allow extreme acts in order to protect his family or those he loves.  Regardless of the choices he may be forced to make in the future, he will not follow in his father's footsteps without an agonizing internal struggle.

My final thought is how lucky the people of Westeros are that Joffrey was not sent to Casterly Rock to be raised by Tywin.  King Robert's negligence in raising his purported son is the sole reason Joffrey is so entirely unprepared to sit on the throne.  Had Tywin been allowed the opportunity to sculpt Joffrey into a younger version of himself, Joffrey's petty cruelty would be trivial in comparison to the power he could wield over the people of Westeros.  And some of those atrocities may yet come to pass if Tywin takes up his position as the King's Hand, as it appears he may in season 3.

How's that for



-- Edited by Black as Snow on Tuesday 23rd of October 2012 02:01:04 AM

-- Edited by DonalNoyesArm on Tuesday 23rd of October 2012 02:02:57 AM

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Mistress of the Rookery
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I wont say anything. You know more than me about this. But here, you deserve her:59b70b82.gif She  likes brave people.



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Braavosi Water Dancer
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Wow.  I loved this post, Black. So many quotable bits... Like this one "This post isn't really about Tywin Lannister.  It's about all of the Lannisters, but Tywin is at the crux of who the Lannisters truly are." I couldn't agree more.

And what you say about the Rains of Castamere, I agree, they do say who Lannisters are supposed to be at their core in Tywin's mind. I would love to comment more but I fear to spoil something so all I'm gonna add is this.


Black as Snow wrote: My final thought is how lucky the people of Westeros are that Joffrey was not sent to Casterly Rock to be raised by Tywin.  King Robert's negligence in raising his purported son is the sole reason Joffrey is so entirely unprepared to sit on the throne.  Had Tywin been allowed the opportunity to sculpt Joffrey into a younger version of himself, Joffrey's petty cruelty would be trivial in comparison to the power he could wield over the people of Westeros. 

I never thought about it in this terms, but you're right. Robert Baratheon's negligence might indeed be a blessing in desguise for the Westerosi. Hats off to you milady.

hats_off.gif




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High King and Conqueror of the Seven Kingdoms
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Hahaha you sound just like Cersei in her POV chapters, I won't say anythng more on the subject, ok I will spoiler below 

Spoiler

Secondly I don't agree with your Joffrey fostering theory. THe entire reason why he is the sadistic bastard he is is cause of Cersei's upbringing. Remember that scene in season 1 "You are my darling boy and the world will be as you make it." Imagine the results of telling a kid something like that every day. Kids need boundaries, imagine growing up without any of that or discipline. Joff once sliced open a pregnant cat to see the little kittens inside, Robert beat him for that. Cersei told Robert if he ever beat Joff again, she would slit his throat. So Joff grew up without discipline as well. I dare say Tywin would have raised him with a much more realistic disciplined hand, teaching him what ruling is truly about. I think it would've been better for all if Joff had been away from his venomous mother and negligent father. 

Thirdly I solemnly believe that if Tyrion was not born a dwarf he would have been his father's favourite as he is the one who most closely resembles Tywin. Tyrion's rejection of Marillion's song lies more in his personal feelings towards a father who has never shown him any compassion or love. He admires Tywin a great deal and has it in him to be just as a great a man, if only it wasn't for his body. The world is so unfair sometimes. Had Tyrion been born in Jaime's body, well let's just say Aegon the Conqueror would've been reborn into a Lannister and Robb Stark would've lost the war in it's first year. 



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I agree with Aegon, Roberts lousy father figure, Cersei's horrible spoiling have been contributing factors to him being such a bad apple.

Tywin would at least have brought in some discipline if Joff was forstered at Casterly Rock.

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Mistress Of The Coin
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Aegon the Conqueror wrote:
Secondly I don't agree with your Joffrey fostering theory. THe entire reason why he is the sadistic bastard he is is cause of Cersei's upbringing. Remember that scene in season 1 "You are my darling boy and the world will be

Aegon, perhaps your feelings about Joffrey that makes sense from a book reader's perspective, but I don't see it.  My personal belief is that sadism is not a learned behavior.  While experiences, particularly during childhood, may enhance a person's innate sadistic tendencies, I don't think it can be fostered through experience unless those tendencies already exist.  I would expect the complete lack of personal responsibility and appreciation of consequences that he displays as a result of the lack of parental attentionand discipline he has suffered.  But Joffrey is so much more than that.  His lack of appreciation for the consequences of his rash actions has weakened his position considerably.

Had Tywin taught Joffrey discipline and an appreciation for the bigger picture and the long game, Joffrey's rule would be entirely different and much more dangerous in the long term.  Yes, Tywin would have taught him what ruling is about, but it would not turn him into a benevolent or good king.  A broader perspective would unleash his cruelty from the confines of his court.  He could truly unleash a reign of terror on the people of Westeros, as long as he has learned the cunning to understand the limitations of where and when to direct his power.  I think a more realistic world view from Joffrey would be disastrous.

As for Tyrion, we are in agreement that he would be another Tywin were he not a dwarf.  But he is a dwarf.  And the cruelty he has experienced as a result has given him a heartfelt compassion for the suffering of others that will not allow him to follow in his father's footsteps were he given the chance.  While Tyrion is capable of his father's ruthlessness, he is not capable of his father's coldheartedness.



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No one in Westeros should have had children. Tywin a better influence? C´mon.

No one would have made ​​him a good kid. Joff is a psychopath. You just need medicine for that. Maybe.

 

Have to edit this comment cause my first sentence sounded really bad. Didn´t meant to offend anyone. Sorry if I did.



-- Edited by andrea on Tuesday 23rd of October 2012 11:30:29 AM

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@BaS, in any case Joffrey is a messed up kid. I think even Ned Stark could not have instilled any decency in the boy.

Also Robert and Cercei also raised Tommen and Myrcella and like Tyrion himself says "They are good children."

Sometimes things happen outside if parents control. That's certain.

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Lady Of The Blue Winter Rose
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Nicely done, Lady Black! dornishred.  The most telling scene for me regarding Joffery is when Arya unhands him while she's with the butcher's boy.  Joffery is a coward, still a child mayhaps, and does not have the tools to reign.  So, he hides behind his mother, his titles, his "dog", and anything or anyone else he may blame his shortcomings on.  Tywin is ashamed of his own father.  Tywin speaks of this while skinning the stag with Jaime.  That his father nearly cost them Casterly Rock with his laise faire attitude.  So, Twin comes in, makes his house one to fear and respect again - he's not going back to the days of his father ever again. Just my twocents.gif !



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Aegon the Conqueror wrote: Secondly I don't agree with your Joffrey fostering theory. THe entire reason why he is the sadistic bastard he is is cause of Cersei's upbringing. Remember that scene in season 1 "You are my darling boy and the world will be as you make it." Imagine the results of telling a kid something like that every day. Kids need boundaries, imagine growing up without any of that or discipline. Joff once sliced open a pregnant cat to see the little kittens inside, Robert beat him for that. Cersei told Robert if he ever beat Joff again, she would slit his throat. So Joff grew up without discipline as well. I dare say Tywin would have raised him with a much more realistic disciplined hand, teaching him what ruling is truly about. I think it would've been better for all if Joff had been away from his venomous mother and negligent father.

Yes, Joff would have learned a lot more being fostered by Tywin, but that's precisely why it's better for Westeros that he wasn't. Because Joff is a psycopath. He's not just the product of a spoilt upbrining. Look at Tommen and Myrcella. They didn't turn up that way. Joff is mentally unbalanced, and like Andrea says, only medicine could maybe MAYBE help him. Had he been raised by Tywin he would have become just a much more accomplished and dangerous psycho king. Would he have been able to hide it better? Surely. But at the core, Joff is rotten. At least, that's the way I see him. Even if Ned Stark had raised him, he still would have been a psycopath. The whole cat incident tells you that. It's a sign of a disturbed mind. Disturbed beyond what good parenting can help. That needs psychological and psychiatric help.



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Mistress Of The Coin
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Agreed, Ladies. Joff is quite a piece of work. And I hope he gets help with his troubles from a sword, not a psychiatrist. A crossbow would be fine too...

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I think everybody here has a point. While I tend to agree with Aegon and DNA in the matter of Joffrey's horrible upbringing, that can be invalidated by the fact that Joffrey is just mentally disturbed and here I agree with BaS and the others, I don't think sadism is a learned behavior.
On the other hand...it's true, Myrcella and Tommen are not like that, but they have not been in Cersei's school for future rulers either. Joffrey was always the one she focused on more, you can tell. My guess is that if Joffrey had been tutored by Tywin he would have grown up to be quite similar to Aerys, in the end.





-- Edited by Macha on Tuesday 23rd of October 2012 11:17:36 AM

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Half nature half nurture ....

Realistically tho how much time would the mother or father spend with royal child ?

Very little .... They would have Septa's and such the like ...



-- Edited by YvyB on Tuesday 23rd of October 2012 12:09:14 PM

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Braavosi Water Dancer
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Aerys? Exactly! Do we want an Aerys? noooooooooooo

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High King and Conqueror of the Seven Kingdoms
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Joff is worse than Aerys IMO,

Spoiler

I don't think Tywin would've allowed the monster that was Joffrey to ascend to the throne if he had been in charge of his upbringing. Tywin is ruthless and can be cruel if needs be. Think he quickly would've realised what a stain Joff's reign would've been on House Lannister.
Whether he would turn out a bad egg or not, my point remains, it would've been better if he had been raised by Tywin. Don't worry though I don't think Joff quite has the brains Tywin possesses.



-- Edited by Macha on Tuesday 23rd of October 2012 01:01:49 PM

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spiderkillTywin´s discipline is not something one can compliment, that´s what I mean. I don´t give a damn for more or less crazy. Tywin is a monster too, in his own ways. Worst, because he´s still has his wit intact. You just don´t choose between two different kinds of evil.



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 Messi has been and will always be one of my favorite players. It broke my heart a little bit that he didn't win today. Messi is awesome in every way. But Sean Penn still sucks all the dicks. Atat.

 

 

 

High King and Conqueror of the Seven Kingdoms
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This is Westeros, there are no good and evil. Tywin is hailed as a brilliant man who would have made an extraordinary king. Ned didn't like him, but he sure as hell respected him. The entire realm did. Love wasn't something he had use for but respect, there's another issue all together.

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Ok frustrated.gif.

No, this is silly of me. Do you really think that GRRM´s world is really grey and impartial?



-- Edited by andrea on Tuesday 23rd of October 2012 12:55:53 PM

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 Messi has been and will always be one of my favorite players. It broke my heart a little bit that he didn't win today. Messi is awesome in every way. But Sean Penn still sucks all the dicks. Atat.

 

 

 

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andrea wrote:

spiderkillTywin´s discipline is not something one can compliment, that´s what I mean. I don´t give a damn for more or less crazy. Tywin is a monster too, in his own ways. Worst, because he´s still has his wit intact. You just don´t choose between two different kinds of evil.


 What she said. 

The problem with how Tywin raised his children is that...well you can hardly give him an award for that. Look how they all turned up! Tyrion turned out ok, but that's because Tywin more or less shunned him. Jaime hasn't really learned that much from him, and Cersei, who is the one who *wants* to be a female version of Tywin is the way we know she is, or what I'd call a cruel, narcissistic, paranoid, power hungry

Spoiler
bitch. Sorry for being blunt, it's only my opinion. 

Now, I don't deny Tywin is a highly intelligent, caulculated and resourceful individual. But while his family (not his family *name*) is concerned, he's shite. Because he's too proud, and that blinds him. 

REQUEST: Let's put background information that hasn't been revealed on the show in spoiler tags as well. We can just add things like "info on Aerys's madness behind these tags" or something. That way, if BaS wants to read it, she will. Duskendale hasn't been mentioned in the show, to my knowledge. Thanks!



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Braavosi Water Dancer
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@Aegon

whaaaa10.jpg

Noone being entirely good or entirely evil, and no inherent rewards for good behaviour doesn't suddenly make a man like Tywin a desirable king. Or father. Or someone who could have "set things straight", whatever that means. Being "respected" is not an inherently desirable quality. In either. Plenty of horrific rulers were respected. Revered even.

ETA to support what Andrea and Macha said about Tywin.




-- Edited by Tir Airgid on Tuesday 23rd of October 2012 01:07:10 PM

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To Macha I would answer that neither Cersei nor Jaime inherited they're father's intelligence. Jaime responded to the pressure from his father by becoming something else, Cersei overcompensated for her being a female by going off the deep end. Tyrion is the only one that inherited the brains, sadly that's all he got. Besides

Spoiler

By setting things straight I mean, running the kingdom so it's ordered or structured, makes a profit, keeps the peace and the lords in line. Pretty much the same way he has run the Westerlands. I don't much care for the individual happiness of the little people etc. Tywin would have been a horrible king to rebel against. 



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Aegon the Conqueror wrote:

To Macha I would answer that neither Cersei nor Jaime inherited they're father's intelligence. Jaime responded to the pressure from his father by becoming something else (...)


 Um, I'd argue against  Jaime's identity being a response to his father's pressure, but this is not really the thread for it.  

I'm thinking we should open a topic for Joffrey as well, if people are interested in discussing his upbringing and nature, we got a bit carried away with that discussion and we should focus on Tywin here. He does not forgive. 






-- Edited by Macha on Tuesday 23rd of October 2012 01:52:07 PM

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Aegon the Conqueror wrote:

To Macha I would answer that neither Cersei nor Jaime inherited they're father's intelligence. Jaime responded to the pressure from his father by becoming something else, Cersei overcompensated for her being a female by going off the deep end. Tyrion is the only one that inherited the brains, sadly that's all he got.

By setting things straight I mean, running the kingdom so it's ordered or structured, makes a profit, keeps the peace and the lords in line. Pretty much the same way he has run the Westerlands. I don't much care for the individual happiness of the little people etc. Tywin would have been a horrible king to rebel against. 


Aegon, I disagree about the intelligence of Cersei, Jaime and Joffrey.  I think it's easy to misconstrue ignorance with lack of intelligence.  And from what I've seen, these three Lannisters do not suffer from a lack of intelligence at all, just varying levels of lack of education and perspective.  And I imagine that Jaime's learning disability has been a significant handicap, but I think what he suffers from more than anything is lack of ambition.  I don't think I have enough information about why Jaime has turned his back on his father's plans for him, but I suspect Cersei is more influential in that regard than Tywin.

I agree with your assertion about Tywin's ability to run the kingdom.  He would be an excellent ruler from a purely fiscal and economic standpoint.  From the perspective of "foreign policy" he would also do an excellent job.  I would feel very comfortable with him as king when the troubles in the north start begin to spill over to the south of the wall.  But he would be far from a benevolent dictator.  The freedom, rights and lives of his people would have no value.  I could easily see him making the same type of administrative decrees that have killed millions in our own history, such as the Holodomor and the Great Leap Forward.  And yes, he would be a terrible king to defy, as the Rains of Castomere attests.   Should he succeed in reigning in and gaining influence over Joffrey, he would become a truly frightening force in Westeros.



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I cannot answer you without giving away spoilers. We shall debate the intelligence of the three siblings in a couple of years.

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Fair enough, Aegon. I can only imagine how much more information your opinion is based on than mine, but we can make a point of revisiting this in the spring (or autumn in your case).

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Black as Snow wrote:

 but I think what he [Jaime] suffers from more than anything is lack of ambition.  I don't think I have enough information about why Jaime has turned his back on his father's plans for him, but I suspect Cersei is more influential in that regard than Tywin.


 Spot on, BaS. I feel the same way. The way I see it, Jaime just never wanted the same things that Tywin had in mind for him, and was much more willing to listen to Cersei or do everything he could so that he could be near her. Jaime is not unintelligent though, but he's very rash and often acts without thinking. That's not the same thing as lacking intelligence. Cersei is not stupid either, far from it. But again, she has other traits that overcloud her sense of judgement.

Tywin appears more intelligent because he's much more cold and calculated, that's all. He's a better strategist because of that. But an awful human being, as far as I am concerned. Though you can't help but admire his strenght in a way, especially how it's been presented in the show. Oh how Mr. Macha loves him. One of his favorite characters. He calls him "granpa Lannister". Not only because of his scenes with Arya, but he loves evil characters. Littlefinger is a close second, lol. I just wanna slap him senseless sometimes. 

Oh and BaS, you shouldn't feel like you're opinion is not legit or anything like that. As you can see, book readers disagree on many things, so it's all about personal interpretation. 



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BaS.

Your interpretation of House Lannister was both refreshing and astute.

Your interpretation of Cersei gives Lena Headley credit. You are accurate that she is intelligent and power hungry. But you have to admit that the daughter of Tywin Lannister should not have been a drunken mess willing to do atrocious deeds to satisfy her vanity.

But Tyrion is just so perfect in Season 2; much too perfect. He is still a Lannister. His wit is unrivaled. But his wits have failed him again. He never should have brought Shae into the Red Keep. You can see that he made a spectacular Hand. But he is grievously injured. And the choices he has made with Shae have put him in danger. Will this change the boldness of the Imp?

I am not the only one who did not get enough of Jaime and Brienne last spring. "Two quick deaths?". Spectacular. The Kingslayer has met his match with the Maid of Tarth. You can see it in his eyes as she slaughters those northmen. Yes he was willing to kill his cousin for an escape attempt. But I have some annoying cousins too.

You are dead on spot when it comes to Tywin. He is ruthless when needed. His interaction with Arya reveals a stern humanity both charming and endearing. I like to put it like this. Tywin Lannister casts a shadow over a family of shadow casters.






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Amsterpaul I wouldn't say the decision of letting Shae into the Red Keep shows Tyrion isn't smart, it at least to me, just once again demonstrates that men too often (myself definitely included) think with their dicks. My dad (who is gay btw) watches this show and laughs his ass off at how stupid some of the decisions the guys make are, just cause they're horny. I'm looking at you Robb! I'm looking at you!

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Lady Of The Blue Winter Rose
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Aegon the Conqueror wrote:

  I'm looking at you Robb! I'm looking at you!


 I second that Motion, as least as far as Robb's concerned, Jeez, what a gargantuan blunder that was. doh.gif



-- Edited by Lyanna Stark on Wednesday 24th of October 2012 01:53:05 PM

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Aegon the Conqueror wrote:

Amsterpaul I wouldn't say the decision of letting Shae into the Red Keep shows Tyrion isn't smart, it at least to me, just once again demonstrates that men too often (myself definitely included) think with their dicks. My dad (who is gay btw) watches this show and laughs his ass off at how stupid some of the decisions the guys make are, just cause they're horny. I'm looking at you Robb! I'm looking at you!


Ummm, both gay and straight men can be extremely stupid, I tell ya testosterone is our worst enemy. Why do you think the guy that thinks the clearest in the book/show has no nuts at all? ( Varys)

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Goddess of Tits and Wine
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DonalNoyesArm wrote:
Aegon the Conqueror wrote:

Amsterpaul I wouldn't say the decision of letting Shae into the Red Keep shows Tyrion isn't smart, it at least to me, just once again demonstrates that men too often (myself definitely included) think with their dicks. My dad (who is gay btw) watches this show and laughs his ass off at how stupid some of the decisions the guys make are, just cause they're horny. I'm looking at you Robb! I'm looking at you!


 

Ummm, both gay and straight men can be extremely stupid, I tell ya testosterone is our worst enemy. Why do you think the guy that thinks the clearest in the book/show has no nuts at all? ( Varys)


 Har!



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  That is what I do . . I drink and I know things 

 

High King and Conqueror of the Seven Kingdoms
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Point being a chain and a keep are nothing,
compared to a woman's kiss
For hands of gold are always cold, but a woman's hands are warm..
and I'll add another line
Once she has you by the balls, all plans will go amiss.

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Knight Of The Sunset Sea
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I am not saying that Tyrion is in any way stupid. I said that his wits betrayed him. He thinks he is smart enough to get away with this. A dangerous move. Foolish, and yes, motivated by testosterone.

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And so he spoke and so he spoke

that lord of Castemere

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Without a soul to hear.

Mistress Of The Coin
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Amsterpaul wrote:
Your interpretation of Cersei gives Lena Headley credit. You are accurate that she is intelligent and power hungry. But you have to admit that the daughter of Tywin Lannister should not have been a drunken mess willing to do atrocious deeds to satisfy her vanity.


But Tyrion is just so perfect in Season 2; much too perfect. He is still a Lannister. His wit is unrivaled. But his wits have failed him again. He never should have brought Shae into the Red Keep. You can see that he made a spectacular Hand. But he is grievously injured. And the choices he has made with Shae have put him in danger. Will this change the boldness of the Imp?

I like to put it like this. Tywin Lannister casts a shadow over a family of shadow casters.


 Yes Amsterpaul, your sentiment about Tywin sums him up perfectly.

Cersei is a disastrous failure.  But she doesn't see herself that way, except in rare moments of honesty and clarity.  My statements about Cersei are more about what she could have been had she been graced with a y chromosome, not what she is.  But she has her father's ambition, and she has learned from him about ruthlessness as a means of maintaining power.  She has not learned many other important lessons and skills from him, which are her undoing.

I see Tyrion as a flawed man, who personifies the characteristics required of a survivor in Westeros.  His achilles heel, and what makes him one of my favorites, is his compassion and his need for acceptance, which is usually well-hidden.  And yes, he's made a terrible mistake with Shae, in part because of his neediness, which makes him deeply vulnerable.  But I don't see it as a failure of his intellect.  I see it as a confirmation of his humanity and his willingness to fully live his life despite the dangers that accompany his decisions.

Tyrion's injury at the Battle of Blackwater will change him...how could it not?  But I do not believe he will be any less bold or scheming.  He has enjoyed his taste of power far too well.  



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Children Of The Forest VP
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Black as Snow wrote:
Aegon the Conqueror wrote:
Secondly I don't agree with your Joffrey fostering theory. THe entire reason why he is the sadistic bastard he is is cause of Cersei's upbringing. Remember that scene in season 1 "You are my darling boy and the world will be

Aegon, perhaps your feelings about Joffrey that makes sense from a book reader's perspective, but I don't see it.  My personal belief is that sadism is not a learned behavior.  While experiences, particularly during childhood, may enhance a person's innate sadistic tendencies, I don't think it can be fostered through experience unless those tendencies already exist.  I would expect the complete lack of personal responsibility and appreciation of consequences that he displays as a result of the lack of parental attentionand discipline he has suffered.  But Joffrey is so much more than that.  His lack of appreciation for the consequences of his rash actions has weakened his position considerably.

Had Tywin taught Joffrey discipline and an appreciation for the bigger picture and the long game, Joffrey's rule would be entirely different and much more dangerous in the long term.  Yes, Tywin would have taught him what ruling is about, but it would not turn him into a benevolent or good king.  A broader perspective would unleash his cruelty from the confines of his court.  He could truly unleash a reign of terror on the people of Westeros, as long as he has learned the cunning to understand the limitations of where and when to direct his power.  I think a more realistic world view from Joffrey would be disastrous.

As for Tyrion, we are in agreement that he would be another Tywin were he not a dwarf.  But he is a dwarf.  And the cruelty he has experienced as a result has given him a heartfelt compassion for the suffering of others that will not allow him to follow in his father's footsteps were he given the chance.  While Tyrion is capable of his father's ruthlessness, he is not capable of his father's coldheartedness.


 I hear what you're saying , Black as Snow, sadism is more than a character flaw and Joffrey's is a psychiatric nightmare.

Yet in spite of these tendencies, his mother goads him, encourages his narcissistic tendencies, inflames his anger.

In season one , she lies about Joffrey being attacked by Arya and the butcher's boy. Cersei is very pragmatic, and

very unlikely ( as a mother ) believes the altercation was provoked by none other but Joffrey. In season two, she

is noted in observing that even she cannot manipulate him as before ( scene where Joffrey is remodeling the throne

room, and later insulting her. She slaps him.). Robert Baratheon spoke to Ned candidly about his son, described him

as a tyrant he would not have on the throne. Later as he lay dying, Robert asks that Ned Stark becomes steward

of the kingdom, denying Joffrey automatic ruling status.

 

Lord Tywin's presence has not been demonstrated , on GoT, in respect to Joffrey. We will, of course be witnessing

this in season 3 . Tywin Lannister is indeed impressionable and commands respect. However , to speculate from

the perspective of S1 & S2, Tywin will be just as effective as Joffrey's uncle, Tyrion. It does help that Tywin

will serve as steward or carry out demands for the realm,but  Joffrey remains the king and may over rule him.

The only thing controlling Joffrey is his psychopathic mind and/or brain disorder.



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Children Of The Forest VP
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Tywin Lannister is well portrayed by Charles Dance. He is effective at leadership and diplomacy.
Let's not not forget that he wanted to settle matters with Ned Stark , which required a brokered
peace, not a beheading. He is pragmatic and shrewd, and very patient. He depicts the nature of
most leaders, to be admired and feared. He is also , not infallible ( isn't everyone ), his future
will be uncertain, as so many hard men in his position. What I detest about Tywin is his lack of
compassion, his greed for power and manipulation of those in his command. He has no love
for anyone, and they do not love him. He is feared and respected, I wouldn't be surprised if those
words aren't engraved on his cemetery stone.

I like how GoT has given a flair to his character, his presidential style. He has potential, and would
easily sit in the Iron Throne , perhaps longer than Robert Baratheon, if it were so.



-- Edited by WildSeed on Thursday 25th of October 2012 05:48:01 PM

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Knight Of The Sunset Sea
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Charles Dance's portrayal if Tywin is great. I can almost see the gold flicker in his eyes.


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And so he spoke and so he spoke

that lord of Castemere

And now the rain, weep o're his halls

Without a soul to hear.

High King and Conqueror of the Seven Kingdoms
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WildSeed Tywin once told Jaime

Spoiler
 

For a man in Tywin's position compassion is a liability, so I don't begrudge him for not having it. Men in his position need to be ruthless. He most reminds me of Caesar. Once the Helvetti tribe from Belgium invaded Roman Occupied Gaul, how did Caesar respond? He slaughtered their army, but knowing it was not enough, he pursued the retreating force. Nearly 70 000 people (mostly women and children) were slaughtered in that chase. However the Helvetti Tribe never bothered Rome again. That's a win in my book. 



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Lady Of The Blue Winter Rose
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WildSeed wrote:

Tywin Lannister is well portrayed by Charles Dance. He is effective at leadership and diplomacy.
Let's not not forget that he wanted to settle matters with Ned Stark , which required a brokered
peace, not a beheading. He is pragmatic and shrewd, and very patient. He depicts the nature of
most leaders, to be admired and feared. He is also , not infallible ( isn't everyone ), his future
will be uncertain, as so many hard men in his position. What I detest about Tywin is his lack of
compassion, his greed for power and manipulation of those in his command. He has no love
for anyone, and they do not love him. He is feared and respected, I wouldn't be surprised if those
words aren't engraved on his cemetery stone.

I like how GoT has given a flair to his character, his presidential style. He has potential, and would
easily sit in the Iron Throne , perhaps longer than Robert Baratheon, if it were so.



-- Edited by WildSeed on Thursday 25th of October 2012 05:48:01 PM


 As usual, spot on, Wildwoman.  Well said, er, typed.  handshake.gif



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Children Of The Forest VP
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Aegon the Conqueror wrote:

WildSeed Tywin once told Jaime

Spoiler
 

For a man in Tywin's position compassion is a liability, so I don't begrudge him for not having it. Men in his position need to be ruthless. He most reminds me of Caesar. Once the Helvetti tribe from Belgium invaded Roman Occupied Gaul, how did Caesar respond? He slaughtered their army, but knowing it was not enough, he pursued the retreating force. Nearly 70 000 people (mostly women and children) were slaughtered in that chase. However the Helvetti Tribe never bothered Rome again. That's a win in my book. 


 I hear you Aegon the Conqueror, to be shrewd and cunning are indeed hallmarks to a man in charge.

What most historians will argue, is the true effectiveness of a great man or leader, in including the ability

of compassion, as benefitting a natural balance. To be just and balanced, an absence of naivete and short

sighted arrogance, usually ensures a lengthy rule and with the love their bannermen and women. If Tywin

had allowed a bit of reflection of himself, from his younger self, he would have realized the damage he'd

done to himself, as a man, as a father. Sadly, his money, power or status, could not change the results.

No ruler is without enemies or jealousy, but the love of family and bannermen will prove a triumph that

no gold dragon could buy. It is difficult( to swallow) the lesson when it's too late, when a longer reign could

be realized, all because of obstinance. There is a riddle, I cannot name completely, which questions what actually

caused king Aerys to become the man he was, a brain disorder or stubborness.

 

By the way, Caligula was considered great by many below him, until he abused his rule and others could no longer

excuse his cruelty. Too bad, with such potential ( as he earlier demonstrated ), those whom could have saved him

saw to his death. 

 

Lack of compassion will tip any scale , in an opposite direction, pointing to destruction. Seeking Balance is always

key to a great ruler and civilization.

 

In Game of Thrones, S3, I hope Tywin Lannister gets to toy around with Joffrey, he was to preoccupied in the books.

Charles Dance said he really wanted to bring out Tywin's humanitarian features, what was missing from other sources.

At least we get to see him smile.



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High King and Conqueror of the Seven Kingdoms
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Caligula was a great ruler....until he had that disease that nearly killed him (many historians think it was a brain disease, and one even claims it was his wine that caused this illness. Afterwards he went batshit crazy.) Aerys also had a incident that drove him over the edge, before which he appeared quite sane. Caesar would've ruled long if not for jealous rivals. My point being that the unforeseen factor is always the most dangerous. I'm sure Tywin's bannermen have great respect and fear for him and he is loved by some of them as we can clearly see by the devotion of Kevan.

Spoiler



-- Edited by Aegon the Conqueror on Friday 26th of October 2012 09:30:29 PM

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Knight Of The Sunset Sea
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History is laden with rivals succumbing and surpassing one another to achieve power. The question of whether or not they are a great leader is to be answered by the legacy left behind. So in the case of Caligula his legacy would be one of insanity, not of greatness. His great deeds are overridden by a perception.

So in the case of Tywin Lannister we shall see what becomes of his legacy. Will it be be the brutality he displayed in his youth? Or the cool, calculating leader we love to hate in the novels and adaptation? Only time will tell.

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And so he spoke and so he spoke

that lord of Castemere

And now the rain, weep o're his halls

Without a soul to hear.

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I understand you, Aegon the Conqueror, and I do respect the capacity of some to be great rulers.
Some historians debate that their rule however, was held in place ( or exacerbated by ) the public's
awe and fear of anything different . Feudal society and dictatorships depend on that fear. It becomes
easy to rule from a dais, with the confidence that power and gold could buy. I look to the many examples
of common men and women, that use their compassion and wisdom, which aids their intelligence for
making decisions that encompass all. Tyrants are rarely loved, but we do fear them, until a plot is hatched
to be rid of them.

I've read of the accounts you referenced , about Caligula , it gave me pause to read them, but the findings
have cautioned further scrutiny, for validation.

On a different note, In GoT, king Robert proved that a part-time king could govern a vast realm, as long
as the belief and entitlement of Kingship was held firmly in place.

I do admire leadership and capable bravery, Tywin Lannister had that, he recognised diplomacy and rewarded
his allies.

Spoiler



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Lady Of The Blue Winter Rose
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WildSeed wrote:
 
Spoiler


 Jeez, Wildwoman, crying.gif, that was good.



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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water.  Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.

 

Lord Bannerman Of The Smileys
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WildSeed wrote:

Spoiler


 Of course, 

Spoiler



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Children Of The Forest VP
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I've considered that too Cary. There is one more ( out of range at the moment but very conniving ),
I wonder when GRRM will launch that plot ?

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Children Of The Forest VP
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If I were a Emperor or statesman, I would request an alpha male like Tywin Lannister to
assist in the rule. He would either fiercely defend the realm, or fiercely undermine it.
He may be dangerous either way, unless gelded or killed.

There are many contenders for the actor portrayal of Tywin , but Charles Dance is leading
the pack at the moment.

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Wielder of the Baratheon BANHAMMER
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So one thing I have alway wondered, both in the book and this season. What is Tywin's deal with Tyrion?
By that I mean, he chooses Tyrion to be acting hand, and Tyrion does a very good job keeping the players of
Kings landing in check PLUS defend the city long enough for help to arrive.

So why does Tywin treat him like crap afterwards? Did he make him acting hand as a jest, hoping he would fail?
But if Tyrion had failed, it would've adversely affected Tywin. His motivation and treatment of Tyrion seemed to switch from one way to the other, or is something that I am missing?

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Mistress Of The Coin
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Based on my show-only perspective, I got the feeling that Tywin felt the need to slap down Tyrion in episode 301 because of his attitude. For possibly the first time ever, Tyrion was confident and assertive with his father, and dared to ask for his due. I think Tywin fully comprehends what Tyrion accomplished as hand and as de facto commander of the troops during the Battle of Blackwater. But Tywin won't allow Tyrion to step into Jaime's shoes and doesn't want Tyrion to become a problem in that regard, so he slammed the door on him and left Tyrion reeling and insecure, just as he always had been in the past. I think he honestly doesn't want his family's legacy to include a dwarf. So he did a self-esteem Rains of Castomere on his son. rains Or at least that's my take on it.

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It was easy for me to forget that Tywin is a stone cold man with a major angry blind spot where it concerns Tyrion, because throughout season 2 all we saw of him was him being cool, clever, competent, tossing out sick burns on dumb people and having awesome interactions with one of the Best Characters. arya The bluntness of his conversation with Tyrion definitely helps you remember, oh yeah, he's a huge jerk. I honestly wince every time either he or Cersei mention Tyrion killing his mother - c'mon, you guys.

I have a big soft spot for Tyrion and Shae both, so I'm really hoping Tywin doesn't find out - obviously nothing good would come of it for either of them. If Cersei doesn't know even after all this time, that seems like a good sign. Varys is a pretty neat dude to keep it a secret, so far anyway.



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