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Topic: Hypothetical Battle Results

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Wielder of the Baratheon BANHAMMER
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Hypothetical Battle Results
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I am kinda fascinated by "what if" scenarios, in season one when Robert and Cersei talk about what would happen if Khal Drogo had landed his khalissar in Westeros. 

For a soldier his analysis seemed strange, yes the Dothraki are basically a gigantic cavalry, but how would they hold up against heavy cavalry? They have no siege weapons, so they would be powerless against city walls. And since they don't like armor they could be whittled down by archers. Don't even get me started on how they would've fared in the North. Personally I think they Dothraki would be defeated in time.

Now how about other hypothetical battles? What if Stannis had not been surprised by the Lannister/ Tyrell armies at Blackwater? What if Renly's shadow assassin had failed?

Let's talk about battles shown or discussed up till now in the Tv show...so others may participate as well.



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Lady Of The Blue Winter Rose
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Hmmm, if Dany were to lead the Dothrakis I do think, if she gave the inhabitants of Westros the option, many would join them. No necessarily because of her, they would be frightened of her dragons and possibly starving from the devistation they would cause.  If it even came to that.  I think they could have marched right to King's Landing and taken the throne without much battle at all.  No one would follow Joffrey or support him. Mayhaps Stannis would try to fight but it would be futility, especially with dragons, and I don't think she would pardon him being that he is a Baratheon.  The North would bend the knee,

Spoiler
as an ally.



-- Edited by Macha on Monday 1st of April 2013 05:49:22 AM

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Mistress Of The Coin
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I'd like to see a Bronn vs. random tough guy tournament. I want to see him fight the Hound, Jaime, Brienne, Stannis and since we're talking hypothetically, Khal Drogo and Ned Stark. I don't know which of those he'd win, but I'd love to see it anyway. Bronn is a badass.

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@Lyanna, but if the whole Dothraki horde came to Westeros, that means Khal Drogo never died, that means Dany never got to hatch her Dragons.

A full Khalissar with dragons would be completely unstoppable, but I don't see how that couldve happened.



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High King and Conqueror of the Seven Kingdoms
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Ok i posted a msg yesterday my pc deleted it and i went to bed. Havent read wgat the others have said, but heres my opinion.
When Robert Baratheon is scared of invaders you know he has good reason to fear. I absolutrly believe Dany and Drogo would have suceeded, heres why. So Dany and Drogo invade with a hundred thousand Dothraki screamers. First of the khak is a experienced battle commander who commands absolute respect. While the arahks of dothraki are prettu much useless against plate armour, their bows are not. Since the dothraki are based on thr mongols one can simply look at history to see the resukt. The scary thing was they were experts at cutting a bloody swathe through knights. The way they fought was impossible for knights to match. So theres strike one.
Strike two the entire westeros are aware of Danys position with the khal so its logical to assume that if she joins many of the houses that supported her father would rally to her banner. Certainly the entire Dorne would. Their army would swell immensely with soldiers who understood western warfare. Drogo being no fool would certsinly use these men.
Strike three with the western houses comes heavy cavalry, armour ajd siege engines. One by one the kingdoms would fall to this allaince
However there is no way they would succeed in invading the north. The only reason Aegon managed to do so was because his dragons convinced king Torhen at the field of fire that they were unstopable. So king Torhen gave up the north. However without dragons and with winter fast coming the North would survive as an independent kingdom.
So.in short Robert wouldve been fucked.

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Priestess of R'hllor
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DonalNoyesArm wrote:

@Lyanna, but if the whole Dothraki horde came to Westeros, that means Khal Drogo never died, that means Dany never got to hatch her Dragons.


 This. If we take out the dragons from the equation, we're left with Dany, Drogo and their khalassar. Yes, just like the mongols they would raid Westeros up and down, however what Don said about lacking siege equipment in a land with a LOT of fortified castles is spot on. If you're looking at the lands the Mongols conquered, you can see that most of them don't resemble Westeros at all. The shock value of an attack would wear out in time, and when the lords would realize they can simply retreat inside their castles, or attack the khalassar anywhere except out in the open - what good are arrows in a forest? - the dothraki wouldn't stand a chance, not in the long run. And no, I don't think Dany would have allies in Westeros if she returned with a khalassar. Think of it this way, these people she's bringing with her are regarded as pillagers and savagers in Westeros. Nobody likes them, nobody wants them there. A khalassar does not have the same shock effect as dragons. So no, I doubt she would have many allies. I actually think she would have none.



-- Edited by Macha on Monday 1st of April 2013 06:51:11 PM

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Lady Of The Blue Winter Rose
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Even before the funeral pyre, Dany had a pretty good idea that her eggs were hatched by fire. Don't believe she would need that event to hatch those eggs. Just turned out that way.

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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water.  Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.

 

Wielder of the Baratheon BANHAMMER
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Lyanna Stark wrote:

Even before the funeral pyre, Dany had a pretty good idea that her eggs were hatched by fire. Don't believe she would need that event to hatch those eggs. Just turned out that way.


 Hmmm, I thought it took more than fire to hatch fossilized dragon eggs. I might be wrong, but I think it was the mix of Mirri Maz Dur's life, the Khal's body, blood magic and fire that created the perfect storm for the dragons to be reborn. I am doing this from my sketchy memory confuse, I am sure Macha knows. biggrin



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Priestess of R'hllor
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I have no idea, but MMD does stress out that "only death can pay for life". To me it looked like just as her baby's life paid for Drogo's veggie state, MMD's life paid for her dragons being born.

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High King and Conqueror of the Seven Kingdoms
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It has been stated numerous times that fire alone cannot hatch the eggs. Many Targeryens killed themselves doing so.

Macha what about the siege of Samarkand? It was expected to last for several years yet in fell in a few days.
If you finished the game (which GRRM had a hand in writing) you would have seen how desperate many of the lords were to have the Targeryens as kings once more. I sincerely believe that many lords would have risen for Dany. Again like Robert said, how long do the people stay loyal while their king and lords hide behind their wide walls? And if they were to meet the Dothraki in open battle, a massacre would follow.

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Priestess of R'hllor
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Aegon the Conqueror wrote:



Macha what about the siege of Samarkand? It was expected to last for several years yet in fell in a few days.
If you finished the game (which GRRM had a hand in writing) you would have seen how desperate many of the lords were to have the Targeryens as kings once more.


 History's full of unexpected outcomes. You can't tranform an exception into a rule, however, and we're analizing the most possible scenarios here. If not I could simply say that Stannis and Mel will get busy and make a pair of shadow-babies and before you know... R.I.P Dany and Drogo, invasion done.

We're also focusing on the show, not the books and not the game, but just for the sake of it - who are these lords? And where would this magnificent army even land in Westeros? Dragonstone? LOL. King's Landing? LOL. The only reasonable choice would be Dorne. Good luck conquering Westeros with just the Dornish for allies. If we're following the narrative of the book and Robert is dead by the time they arrive, the Tyrells would go either with the Baratheons or the Lannisters. Either way, Dany gets nothing. Everybody else would just unite against them because you've just given them a common enemy. By herself, Dany could stand a chance, but she's married to a savage and has no children (if she would, it would just be a newborn) to marry into any of the great houses. She has absolutely nothing to offer to anyone else except the Martells, and that would only be revenge for Elia. Not a strong case as I see it.

 



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Lady Of The Blue Winter Rose
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From Wiki "Daenerys then walked unflinchingly into the flames. The resulting magic restored life to the eggs, from which three dragons hatched, the first known for centuries. Daenerys emerged from the fire unharmed." I stand corrected. Wiki was crashed yesterday morning, so I was not able to check until today. Sorry for the misinterpretation!

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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water.  Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.

 

High King and Conqueror of the Seven Kingdoms
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You don't conquer an empire twice the size of Alexander's without being capable of siege craft. The Dothraki would learn, and if they didn't it's quite simple. Starve the lords out of their castles, make them fight the Dothraki on open fields where they would be massacred. 

Let's run the numbers shall we, the Drogo has 100 000 Dothraki in his khallasar. 

The Starks have 20 000, they would not join with the Lannisters and as said before the North is quite unconquerable.

THe Lannisters have 60 000, that's before Robb massacred half of them, something that would've happened before the Dotraki Landed. 

The combined forces of the Baratheons and Tyrrels are 100 000. 

I don't believe the Iron Islanders would join as I sincerely doubt the Dotraki would want to invade there. They also have a lot more reason to hate the Baratheons than they do the Targeryens. 

So ok in total Westeros has (excluding the Starks and the Vale, I have no idea what Lysa would do) 130 000 soldiers up in arms. Let's add another 50 000 as home guard. 

No add the Dornish whou would also command about 20 000 spears according to the books as well as siege craft, heavy cavalry etc. 

 

That's 130 000-150 000 Westerosi soldiers of whom the greater number are untrained peasants with bad weapons. Only half those would be professional soldiers. Against 100 000 savage Dothraki warriors who have been trained for battle from birth, augmented by 20 000 Dornish soldiers. 

Spoiler

Like I said, even if the lords don't rise for Dany, she has more than a fair chance of winning back the Iron Throne. She just might destroy the entire realm doing so. 



-- Edited by Macha on Thursday 4th of April 2013 01:33:20 PM

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Priestess of R'hllor
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Again, this is show only. Can we leave the "according to the books, the numbers are..." aside?
I won't comment on the part under the spoiler cut, but if I were to comment, I would probably say there is no basis for that assumption.
"Starve the lords out of their castles, make them fight the Dothraki on open fields where they would be massacred." Yes, because every castle in Westeros is placed on or near an open field, and the lords are completely brainless. Why don't they start with Casterly Rock? I'd love to see them trying to starve the Lannisters/*insert any other castle placed on a coast here*.
Riiiiight, the dothraki would learn how to build siege weapons in no time. After all they're known for their ingenuity, hard work and crafting skills. Hell, they might as well learn to build boats as well and screw those Iron islanders up the ass. Then their engineers could start building the very first planes and attack the Eyrie from the sky. But first they should make sure their women knit them some woolen sweaters before they catch a cold and die.

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Wielder of the Baratheon BANHAMMER
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LMAO Macha, first female hand of the King?? I think so!

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High King and Conqueror of the Seven Kingdoms
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(facepalm) you do realise they have Dornish allies right? Dornishmen who know about siege craft. And I don't know about you but with the exception of a notable few most lords are quite brainless and would elect to meet the Dothraki on open fields. Even Ned was sure they could "throw the Dothraki back into the sea".

Since when is this a show discussion? The title says hypothetical battle results, nothing in it says this is show only. And as you can see I used the Stark and Lannister troop numbers as presented in the show.

If Robert Baratheon the greatest commander in westeros says you'd get your ass kicked I tend to believe him.

Now can we please get away from the snarky condescending debate you seem to want to draw me into?

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Priestess of R'hllor
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Since when is this a show discussion?
Since "Let's talk about battles shown or discussed up till now in the Tv show...so others may participate as well."

Ending snarky condescending debate in 3....2...1.

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High King and Conqueror of the Seven Kingdoms
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To fully understand the situation one has to look at a complete picture, hence why I used spoiler tags. To see the full picture you have to use all the source material available to you. Which is why I didn't say anything about the Rock because I have no idea what the defenses look like.

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Wielder of the Baratheon BANHAMMER
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Gods what have I wrought? Look guys, this is just a hypothetical. I *was* basing it on what was shown on the series.
So Lady Black could also discuss as she is insightful in these matters despite not having read the books.

There are countless variables, what if the long winter did arrive during this? I would see the Dotharaki say "fuck it" and go south, and that could lead to another interesting battle or alliance.

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High King and Conqueror of the Seven Kingdoms
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I've thought of that too, winter comes, Dothraki simply settle in Highgarden and Dorne where winter seldom if ever touches.

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Grand Maesterbator
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Ah Aegon

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Ahhhh, Bach.

 





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According to the show only and if we go by Stannis's Season 2 The Night Lands statement: "In a real war, the side with the greater number wins nine times out of ten", I think in the Westeros the wildlings should have won the Wall battle!!!!

Stannis was wrong. Or maybe Mel was right that the battle we saw in "Watchers on the Wall" was the exception.

 

EDIT: why is there a MASH clip in the Hypothetical Battle Results topic? I plan soon to apply for a modship here. I'm warning you. And you know who you are!



-- Edited by TormundsWoman on Tuesday 6th of January 2015 10:13:05 PM

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He did said nine times out of ten, so...

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Stanny is not a tactical genus. He is just a sexy man who knows how to work the bald look.

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Defender Of The Realm
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Yep, Stanny is a bit of a fox really! humpy Well, I mean Dillane is. He may not be a tactical genius but he's like a bulldog. He never stops. That's what Davos says and what I believe. He had lower numbers but better trained soldiers. With actual armor. Not like the wildlings who had numbers but no training and were very disorganized. And he had cavalry and the element of surprise.

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