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Topic: Foreshadowing *Book Spoilers*

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Braavosi Water Dancer
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Foreshadowing *Book Spoilers*
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I thought we needed a thread to discuss something heavily used by martin and that it's not prophecy, greensight or amusingly crackpotty: foreshadowing... And i'm going to start with a few shiny bits my magpie brain collected from tumblr and westeros.

* You know how "to go east you must go west" blah blah and to "touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow". This has often been associated with Asshai, but GRRM said in several interviews we'd probably never get to see Asshai... Well... here's another option...

Even so, she kept one hand on Needle as they slipped between his legs. More arrow slits dotted the insides of those great stone thighs, and when Arya craned her neck around to watch the crow’s nest slip through with a good ten yards to spare, she spied murder holes beneath the Titan’s armored skirts, and pale faces staring down at them from behind the iron bars.

And then they were past.  The shadow lifted, the pine-clad ridges fell away to either side, the winds dwindled, and they found themselves moving through a great lagoon.

So basically, if you go to the city of braavos, you have to pass beneath the shadow. Interesting, isn't it?

* Now the next bit i am almost convinced it's gonna happen. At the crossing of the river, remember when she fights off the branch that looked like a kraken and that's heavily regarded as foreshadowing an encounter with the Greyjoys? Well, when you add it to this:

"If I had wings...I'd just fly away, fly up past the moon and the shining stars, and see all the things in Old Nan's stories, dragons and seamonsters and the Titan of Braavos, and maybe I wouldn't ever fly back unless I wanted to"

it's hard NOT to think that arya will cross paths with dany (or another dragonrider) and the greyjoys.

* Next one, I don't know what to make of, but something's certainly cooking in this kitchen, imo.

Stannis says this to Jon:

"By right Winterfell should go to my sister Sansa."

"Lady Lannister, you mean? Are you so eager to see the Imp perched on your father's seat? I promise you, that will not happen whilst I live, Lord Snow."

let's get passed by the Stannis might die part for a minute cause this would also work if Stannis faked his own death

Spoiler
Now he means winterfel, but if rhaegar is jon's father... can that mean foreshadow tyrion going to dragonstone? perched. like a bird. or a gargoyle. Tyrion has been often compared to a gargoyle:

Tyrion Lannister was sitting on the ledge above the door to the Great Hall, looking for all the world like a gargoyle.

Motionless as a gargoyle, Tyrion Lannister hunched on one knee atop a merlon.

They hacked off her brother’s head in the hope that it was mine, yet here I sit like some bloody gargoyle, offering empty consolations.

 When the moonstones hung from Sansa’s ears and about her neck, the queen nodded. “Yes. The gods have been kind to you, Sansa. You are a lovely girl. It seems almost obscene to squander such sweet innocence on that gargoyle.”

 and so on... (there's too many to quote). and now that tyrion is connected to greyscale, the gargoyle connection seems even more fitting.

Now see this

That only annoyed her further. “Your head may have glass eyes, but I do not. There are gargoyles on Dragonstone that look more like the Imp than this creature. He’s bald, and twice my brother’s age. What happened to his teeth?”

Davos had a thirst. He took his leave of his sons and turned his steps toward the inn. Out front squatted a waist-high gargoyle, so eroded by rain and salt that his features were all but obliterated. He and Davos were old friends, though. He gave a pat to the stone head as he went in. “Luck,” he murmured.

just like how tyrion's head used to be patted for luck in one of the free cities. So will Davos and Tyrion meet? Will Tyrion spend some time in Dragonstone?

and there's some other bits that could be related, though i'm not sure what could imply... he survives? he goes blind from greyscale?:

The entrance to the crypts was in the oldest section of the castle, near the foot of the First Keep, which had sat unused for hundreds of years. Ramsay had put it to the torch when he sacked Winterfell, and much of what had not burned had collapsed. Only a shell remained, one side open to the elements and filling up with snow. Rubble was strewn all about it: great chunks of shattered masonry, burned beams, broken gargoyles. The falling snow had covered almost all of it, but part of one gargoyle still poked above the drift, its grotesque face snarling sightless at the sky.

 compare with what moqorro says:

“Dragons,” Moqorro said in the Common Tongue of Westeros. He spoke it very well, with hardly a trace of accent. No doubt that was one reason the high priest Benerro had chosen him to bring the faith of R’hllor to Daenerys Targaryen. “Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark.And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all.

Snarling? An amiable fellow like me?” Tyrion was almost flattered.



-- Edited by DonalNoyesArm on Thursday 2nd of May 2013 12:35:47 PM

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Goddess of Tits and Wine
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RE: Foreshadowing
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Thank you for that Tir dear ... much to think on there ..

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Priestess of R'hllor
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I think the passing beneath the shadow was definitely supposed to be Asshai. Doesn't Quaithe use the exact same phrase when she talks to Jorah in S2? Most likely, in Book 2 GRRM still intended for Dany to reach Westeros from the West, but then got bored ran out of time and decided to send Victarion to Mereen and so on. I'd say the original plan might have still involved the Greyjoys somehow - didn't Euron travel to Asshai at some point? Or perhaps she would have struck a deal with them upon reaching the Iron Islands, if she came from the West.
The reason why I think the Titan is insignificant is that if you look at the map, Dany doesn't need to travel all the way up to Braavos which is in the North West of Essos, when she could take a faster route. If she sails with Victarion's fleet, her meeting Arya is out of the question IMO.

Need to think on Tyrion for a bit, but why would it matter if Stannis is alive or dead? He already lost Dragonstone.



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Braavosi Water Dancer
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Macha wrote:

Need to think on Tyrion for a bit, but why would it matter if Stannis is alive or dead? He already lost Dragonstone.


 because he says it wont happen while he's alive



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Lord Bannerman Of The Smileys
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RE: Foreshadowing *Book Spoilers*
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WOW. I love this. The Imp on Dragonstone. Because of what Stannis said. Wait. Why would that make any sense?

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Lady Of The Blue Winter Rose
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S1 - Early foreshadowing. Starks come upon a stag and a direwolf both death, both killed each other. Later, Tywin is skinning a stag - the Lannister(s) taking out the Baratheons. After Ned is killed, in S2, King Joffrey comes unglued at the sight of the Stark flag in his presence. Brandon's

Spoiler



-- Edited by Lyanna Stark on Thursday 2nd of May 2013 03:00:09 PM

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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water.  Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.

 

Priestess of R'hllor
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Thing is, why would Tyrion even want Dragonstone? Currently the island only has strategic value if you're amassing a fleet - which I think is one of the theories surrounding Loras and Aurane Waters or whatever the hell his name is, the one who Cersei appointed Master of Ships before he left and took the entire fleet with him. 
If it's foreshadowing, it's too much effort working all those "clues" in the text for a minor event. I think it's more a case of GRRM overusing his favorite words again.

I don't remember many foreshadowing moments but there is one that I've always loved, something Robb says at a certain point:
The Greatjon says that won't matter if we catch him with his breeches down, but it seems to me that a man who has fought as many battles as Tywin Lannister won't be so easily surprised.

I see you trollin', GRRM.



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Goddess of Tits and Wine
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There was one about Sansa after seeing Ned's head .. Can't remember the words exactly ..

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Grand Maesterbator
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For a second I thought this thread was about foreskins. As in Varamar.

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Braavosi Water Dancer
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Macha wrote:

Thing is, why would Tyrion even want Dragonstone? Currently the island only has strategic value if you're amassing a fleet - which I think is one of the theories surrounding Loras and Aurane Waters or whatever the hell his name is, the one who Cersei appointed Master of Ships before he left and took the entire fleet with him. 
If it's foreshadowing, it's too much effort working all those "clues" in the text for a minor event. I think it's more a case of GRRM overusing his favorite words again.

I don't remember many foreshadowing moments but there is one that I've always loved, something Robb says at a certain point:
The Greatjon says that won't matter if we catch him with his breeches down, but it seems to me that a man who has fought as many battles as Tywin Lannister won't be so easily surprised.

I see you trollin', GRRM.


About Tyrion idk. Could be what u say, could be... i'm still convinced that Arya will meet dragons and krakens though, somehow. In her case the foreshadowing seems too strong. 51909?AWSAccessKeyId=1XXJBWHKN0QBQS6TGPG2&Expires=1371168000&Signature=%2BFwlnIGVE15ZmJeG7GfhTopTVDA%3DI also think she's gonna die, for the "lone wolf" phrase and the "needle in the snow" bit.

About the greatjon's bit... i didn't catch that, wow!



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“Fear is a strange soil. It grows obedience like corn, which grow in straight lines to make weeding easier. But sometimes it grows the potatoes of defiance, which flourish underground.”

― Terry Pratchett, Small Gods.

 
 

 

Priestess of R'hllor
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Tir Airgid wrote:
i'm still convinced that Arya will meet dragons and krakens though, somehow. In her case the foreshadowing seems too strong. 51909?AWSAccessKeyId=1XXJBWHKN0QBQS6TGPG2&Expires=1371168000&Signature=%2BFwlnIGVE15ZmJeG7GfhTopTVDA%3DI also think she's gonna die, for the "lone wolf" phrase and the "needle in the snow" bit.

 You know I remember a quote from Jorah saying something like "our ship could sink or a kraken could pull us under" that always made me giddy thinking we'd see a kraken at some point. I think Martin hinted as much in one of his interviews as well. You know what would raise the epicness to a whole new level, right? A kraken fighting a dragon. Actually, that might be cheesy as hell, but I'll take anything a this point that could kill those beasts. evileye

I'm with you on Arya. Wasn't there a bit where Jon dreams of the crypts of Winterfell and in his dreams he's always looking for Ned, Robb, Benjen and Arya? Granted, these are the people he was close to, but somehow I always got the impression there is a reason why he's looking for them in the crypts, of all places. Two of them are already dead, and Benjen is clearly heading that way, even if he's currently still alive. Here is a summary of that passage.



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Defender Of The Realm
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Tir Airgid wrote:

"* You know how "to go east you must go west" blah blah and to "touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow". This has often been associated with Asshai, but GRRM said in several interviews we'd probably never get to see Asshai... Well... here's another option..."

 

I got a crackpot theory on this one! I haven't seen it here:

Dany needed to pass beneath the shadow. Drogon was called The Winged Shadow by the man who came with his daughter's bones to Meereen. Also in the pit at the wedding, Dany was almost burned by Drogon's fire but there's a mention there that she passes beneath it and then she takes out her whip and controls the dragon.

So maybe it was a test of her conquering her own fear and learning how to control her dragons. That's the best I've got.



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Defender Of The Realm
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OK I guess this could go here:

The show House of Undying scene has only a few of the prophecies the books scene has. I watched that last night and I only got these three:

1. Dany sees someone on the Iron Throne (who I believe is dead by the way she touches the sword handle while passing by). The scene is shot from behind the throne so we don't see who sits it. ACoK has Rhaegar on it, alive and telling her there is another one (or maybe he says it to his wife while the Dornish princess holds baby Aegon).


2. She goes straight through the Wall gate into the snow, beyond the Wall.


3. Beyond the Wall there's a Dothraki tent where Carl Drago holds the little baby (books have it as The Stallion who Mounts the World all grown up)

This pretty much takes the wind out of everything else in the book foreshadowing as being very important, no?

According to how Benioff and Weiss cut it, I'd think she will get to the Wall as a dragon rider to defeat the WW. And somehow Carl Drago or her babyt is still important (?)

I'm tired. This stuff makes no sense when I type it!

EDIT: I have to say that without ToJ scene, or without Ned actually telling Jon who his mother is or without the Rhaegar on the throne telling Dany there is another one... Jon's parentage reveal will look pretty shitty or an ass pull on the show. I mean at some point Benioff and Weiss need to drop some clues for the Unsullied!

 



-- Edited by TormundsWoman on Tuesday 6th of January 2015 10:41:46 PM

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