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Defender Of The Realm
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RE: ToJ - Spoilers Galore
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You mean educated guesses, yet guesses all the same. Ry, you sound like me. It's freaking me out.

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Grand Maesterbator
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I sound like a 33 year old?

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Defender Of The Realm
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You are off topic! hahahahah

EDIT: Someone should delete Ry's post!!!! Mine can stay. It's beautiful.



-- Edited by TormundsWoman on Tuesday 25th of March 2014 05:26:46 PM

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TormundsWoman wrote:
Benjen's and Ashara's? But when, how, Macha? I mean at Harrenhal that boy was probably 11 or something. I have to check a timeline.

 Noup, didn't mean it like that. This has nothing to do with clues in the text, but with my initial feeling when watching the first episodes of S1 (I only started reading the books about mid-season), when I thought it would be nice if Jon turned out to be Benjen's son and not Ned's. Having read AGoT, I still thought that was possible, even though I had no idea who'd be the mother. Didn't care. Then of course I read the books and went online and bam! the roof fell on my head. WHY?? I'm sorry, but I really don't like this R+L "love story" at all. But yeah, sure, I'll concede that everything points to it.



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Defender Of The Realm
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Ooh, Macha, Macha! you innocent person... you did not know how Martin works at the time, did you?! Don't worry he might just get pissed enough the majority drew the same conclusion and change the story just to show us all he's NOT that predictable. It would of course piss 80% of book fans, but one never knows.

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Lady Of The Blue Winter Rose
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One of the visions Daenerys sees in the House of the Undying is the image of a blue winter rose growing from a chink in a wall of ice, filling the air with sweetness. Lyanna was noted by Ned to be fond of winter roses, and he associates them with her death. Jon, who could be the product of Lyanna, is currently at the Wall.

If Rhaegar secretly married Lyanna, it would ironically mean that Jon is not a bastard despite his life having been defined by his believed bastard status to a great extent, and that he is the heir to the Iron Throne after Aegon VI Targaryen (although this last point is rendered moot so long as he belongs to the Night's Watch).



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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water.  Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.

 

Braavosi Water Dancer
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As much as I hate Rhaegar and his "love" story with Lyanna, I have to admit I think it to be true. By now, I take it as fact. (Though it's not beyond Martin to change his mind at the last minute just to screw with his fans heads). The thing is, I don't care? I know I'd be bad storytelling to leave that mystery hanging there, but I... if we never find out what really transpired in ToJ or get confirmation on Jon's parentage... that's fine with me. I can't care enough to even wonder how or when or if we'll get to know it.

That said, were it to be true there's one aspect I do like, the whole reversal of the "i'm secretly the king's heir"' trope's usual outcome. Cause I think knowing himself to not be Ned's son would be tantamount to an earthquake for Jon Snow. He'll be gutted. His entire identity was constructed around the fact that he was; trying to be like him. That's the one thing he always held on to and where he came back for advice or inspiration. Being Lyanna's son would be a consolation, but it can't replace it, cause he never knew her and because his entire life would've been a lie, and his rock would've turn out to be made of pebbles. Plus, he won't be happy to know himself descended from the Mad King's Line. It'd shake his psyche even more.

All this only holds as long as the Jon we get post resurrection is still the same Jon. I don't mind if he isn't though. I kinda like that idea more than I like the thought that all this story could ever be headed to put a spiky chair under Jon (or worse, Dany's) butt.



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Lady Of The Blue Winter Rose
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I don't see Jon on the Iron Throne. Mayhaps Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North, which is what Robb wanted for him, to inherit. To me, that all depends on what happens with Bran though, but that's another thread patrick

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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water.  Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.

 

Priestess of R'hllor
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I'll take that a bit further and say that not only do I dislike the idea of Jon ending up on the iron throne, but I equally dislike him being lord of anything. It doesn't seem fair that after all the sacrifices he has to make for the Night's Watch, he'd suddenly be absolved of all the vows he took because he finds out he's not a bastard after all.

Probably the thing I'd be most content would be for the readers to find out (though like Tir said, I personally don't care for this at all), but not Jon. I wish that by the end of it all he'd be at peace with his identity, even as a bastard. Because *puts on Dumbledore beard* "it is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are."



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Defender Of The Realm
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Macha wrote:

I wish that by the end of it all he'd be at peace with his identity, even as a bastard. Because *puts on Dumbledore beard* "it is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are."


 Ha! Good one, Macha. But I agree with you and Tir. Lord Snow finding out he's not Ned's son I think will shake him to the core. After all his whole life Jon's living it in Eddard's words and image as much as possible. I'm still hoping though for A + N = J


EDIT:

After 4x01:

So we have the non-blue rose (which is not in the books) and we have Red Viper's view on the whole Ellia and Rhaegar marriage where he left her for another woman... Which of course we know it is Lyanna! I'd say this is all going R+L=J...



-- Edited by TormundsWoman on Monday 7th of April 2014 06:45:26 PM

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Knight
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I've dissected the ToJ from so many angles, but the idea that someone was present with Ly and Jon inside the tower when Ned arrived, possibly hurting or threatening her (or helping her, for that matter), is downright creepy, actually.

With the remembered knowledge of what Littlefinger is capable of (having seen recent episodes), and also that he is responsible for Jon Arryn's death, I also started to wonder again if he wasn't the one who told Brandon that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna. I'm thinking of a situation where he is infuriated with Brandon having beaten him in a duel and being promised to Catelyn and then having inside info on Lyanna and Rhaegar eloping and turning it into a story of kidnapping to stir the pot. But then again you have to look at the context. Where was he at that point in his life, how much power did he have (how much access to political knowledge/ royal secrets did he have back then to now this), and, more importantly, what would he gain from starting a war?

If Varys is moving the wheels to get (F)Aegon on the throne, for instance, what would Littlefinger do to get power and how/ why? Maybe he thought if he could get Brandon out of the way by sending him off to KL in a murderous rage over his sister's presumed kidnapping, he could get Cat, but then Brandon was murdered and that started a war and Ned ended up getting her. Then, later, he tried to get Ned out of the way too.

I am not trying to take the blame off Rhaegar and Lyanna's actions, Rhaegar at least is still partially responsible if he eloped with another women out of wedlock. I think he started a sort of affair with Ly but then everything went apeshit when Aerys murdered his lover's father and brother. The great question is, what then, happened to Rhaegar and Lyanna after this incident and where did they go? And, why was no-one capable of telling Brandon And Rickard this at the Keep?

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Knight
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I am unable to quote this but apparently a fan asked Martin on an SSM thread (I don't know what that is) why he killed Jon, to which Martin answered: "Oh, so you think he's dead, do you?". This, with GRRM stating that we will find out who Jon's mother is before he dies, tells me there is more to this ToJ thing. And the above quote of the interview with Isaac also makes it appear really important.

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Defender Of The Realm
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Mags, I always assumed when he said back in 2002 we'll have to wait for future books to find out what happened, that we'll get Howland Reed's story somehow. It has become obvious to me at this point that it will be through Bran's eyes.

For LF being the one to stir things for Brandon & being the one to tell him about Rhaegar & Lyanna: very interesting idea, actually! I don't know what was his position at that time, but Brandon & LF definitely were running in the same circles and I him pushing Brandon Stark into danger against the royal family (which actually happened to the point Bran lost his head) to get revenge and Catelyn free makes sense. Not sure how he would be privy to such dealings though.

Still very good idea, Mags.

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Lady Of The Blue Winter Rose
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I don't think LF figured Cat would be wed to Ned after Brandon, and Lord Stark were killed by the Mad King. But, alas, it happened. He talks about it in the brothel and again with Cat when she pulls the knife on him. That he feels it was his destiny to be with Cat in a very twisted way. It would not surprise me one bit that LF would be behind anything that involved Cat, except the Red Wedding. And there again, I think he had guilty knowledge of that as well, he just did not bank on Cat being killed along with the rest of the North.

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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water.  Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.

 

Defender Of The Realm
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Oops, never thought Twyin might have shared his Frey letters and schemes about the Red Wedding with Petyr! teehee LF should be the default seed of evil!

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Defender Of The Realm
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This popped up on a RT on TW. O M G! Will need to read it AGAIN and dissect it but here is the link

www.zap2it.com/blogs/game_of_thrones_sean_bean_return_not_jon_snow_father-2014-07




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Defender Of The Realm
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I'm so happy! I'm doing a little dance right now in the office! Maybe we"ll get the while thing and #SerArthurDayne #SwordOfTheMorning too. HOLY CRAP! Get a hold of yourself Strider!!!!

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I love you, Sean Bean!!! WOOOO HOOO! TW, highfive, girl!! highfive That is the best GOT news I have had in a long, long, time! Oh, you made my day, sister.  Thank you, thank you! huggs



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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water.  Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.

 

Lord Paramount Of The Ginger Minge
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TormundsWoman wrote:

This popped up on a RT on TW. O M G! Will need to read it AGAIN and dissect it but here is the link

www.zap2it.com/blogs/game_of_thrones_sean_bean_return_not_jon_snow_father-2014-07



Please let this happen!! I'd love to see Sean Bean back for one of Bran's visions. 



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Grand Maester of the Sausage Manufacture
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That was pretty obvious anyways. It's funny how people are already speculating about an entire flashback season of got, some serious wishful thinking here. People need to get a grip and realize HBO doesn't give a fuck if Gurms finishes the books or not, they're going to end GoT with seven seasons and long before gurm finishes with the books. CHOOO CHOOO MOTHERFUCKER!!!!!!

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Defender Of The Realm
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Lyanna Stark wrote:

I love you, Sean Bean!!! WOOOO HOOO! TW, highfive, girl!! highfive That is the best GOT news I have had in a long, long, time! Oh, you made my day, sister.  Thank you, thank you! huggs


 I'm delighted. And here's the kicker. If they don't do it now, they'll look like real fools because Bean offered media took it and went with it. I mean the thing is like a virus now on the net. Everyone and their mother published something in less than 24 hrs.

Besides the fact that Isaac already mentioned "a certain scene in a Tower in the South of Westeros". The Praying scene is in the books and it is one of Bran's weirwood net visions. But ToJ is a different animal. They could still use Bean. They can put so much make up on him, use certain camera angles or retcon in post production whatever they want (light, effects whatever). Or just show him holding hands with Lyanna and show his back with her in bed. It would still be something.

teehee I made up a whole scene there.



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Sean Bean can suck my choad. If there ever was an overrated under achieving actor is his pasty ass. Fucking Limeys.

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Wielder of the Baratheon BANHAMMER
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Rygar wrote:

Sean Bean can suck my choad. If there ever was an overrated under achieving actor is his pasty ass. Fucking Limeys.


 Someone needs a hug! huggs



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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water.  Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.

 

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freakout freakout freakout LYANNNAAAAAA! Haha I cannot believe he answered like that. this made my evening even better than it is already! huggs



-- Edited by TormundsWoman on Wednesday 30th of July 2014 09:15:35 PM

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Lord Paramount
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His eyes are looking for a lie.

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Lyanna Stark wrote:


 

Haha sly interviewer.

One thing I don't get about Jon being the offspring of Rheager is how come he's lacking any of the Targaryen features?



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Defender Of The Realm
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Al, I read your comment and the only one Targaryan that I could think of that doesn't have the Targ features in the whole of ASoIaF was Baleor Breakspear. You got the Hedge Knight comic, right? Take a look at him (he's the heir that gets killed in the first book, at the time was Hand and helps Dunk). He has short dark hair. His mom was a Martell I think.

So apparently if the mom doesn't have the recessive gene (both parents have to have the same gene which determines the color of the hair or eyes passed down to the child), the kid can take after the dominant one of the mother. I don't know what else could explain it.

EDIT: I looked a bit at the ASoIaF wiki teehee I couldn't find another one but damn, there's a lot of them Targaryans! It makes sense though if they interbreed then both parents have the genes that carry the white hair and purple eyes. Once they marry in another family, it may be that they don't have those features. Unless they are Daynes. Or a mixture that has some Targ blood left in them, like the Baratheons. Well, mine is just a theory.



-- Edited by TormundsWoman on Friday 1st of August 2014 12:17:43 AM

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Goddess of Tits and Wine
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Rygar wrote:

 Fucking Limeys.


 OI!!!!!



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TormundsWoman wrote:

So apparently if the mom doesn't have the recessive gene (both parents have to have the same gene which determines the color of the hair or eyes passed down to the child), the kid can take after the dominant one of the mother. I don't know what else could explain it.



-- Edited by TormundsWoman on Friday 1st of August 2014 12:17:43 AM


Because magic!



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Knight
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I always understood that some genes are stronger in the IaF universe ("the seed is strong"). That is why most Baratheons keep their dark hair, even if they themselves have Targ blood.

I think Kit was joking with that answer. He meant "forward" as in liberal. He might have been sarcastic because he implied in a previous interview that he dislikes royalty (British royalty, the class system), but let me go look at the whole interview if I missed something. I would love for it to all be true. And it looks like even the journalists are buying into the theory.

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Knight
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We should probably start a new thread for this, but during the initial speculation of the casting of the High Sparrow, someone suggested over at Watchers that Howland Reed = High Sparrow. The theory is over at the Ice and Fire forums, and present it's own range of problems and nuances, but I really like this idea. If Jon has a claim to the Throne, this means Howland would be able to legitimise him. However, if he is playing the role of the HS for pure revenge's sake, he might not have anything to do with convincing people that Jon is the true heir.

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Priestess of R'hllor
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Hmm, High Sparrow? Never heard of this theory. Bit hard to believe, why would Howland Reed spend so many years in KL in disguise and for what? Doesn't seem like the type that would absurdly go looking for revenge there, I don't even think it's that personal to him.

On a bit of an unrelated note, the fact that Sean Bean's out talking about how Jon isn't his son in every goddamn interview there is since he left the show pisses me off big time. Ok, I get it, you talked about it once. Twice. But let it go, man, it's becoming spoilerific as hell.

 



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Grand Maester of the Sausage Manufacture
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I have a personal theory that Hodor is Rhaegar in disguise and Bran is actually his son wkth cately whike jon is the son of lyanna and Ned, who killed her in shame of his incest, because honor and stuff.

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Knight
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The new HS was quite recently appointed. At some point Cersei and Tyana are speculating where he is from.

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Lady Of The Blue Winter Rose
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www.idigitaltimes.com/game-thrones-season-6-spoilers-show-definitely-revealing-rlj-season-465827
Not big into next seasons spoilers EXCEPT where TOJ is concerned

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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water.  Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.

 

Defender Of The Realm
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Ly, I'm wondering if you heard they almost surely had a casting call (like 99.99999999%) for Ser Arthur Dayne freakout I mean the description of the knight they are looking to cast is almost taken word for word from the Sword of the Morning book description. I'm still freaking out just thinking about it freakout so I'm almost positive ToJ is in. yippie

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Lady Of The Blue Winter Rose
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Nope, I did not hear that, TW faint I would love to see that flashback. Don't think they could have Sean Bean in there then because he was a young man, darn it.

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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water.  Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.

 

Defender Of The Realm
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watchersonthewall.com/more-casting-info-for-game-of-thrones-season-6/

Ly, go to the legendary fighter. Description says also paragon of knighthood, carries a legendary sword on his back. I can't think of anyone else in ASoIaF with those characteristics!



-- Edited by TormundsWoman on Tuesday 11th of August 2015 06:16:37 PM

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Defender Of The Realm
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Ok, I got to copy the part I wanted on the shitty little screen! dance because I didn't want you to get spoiled on those roles they are casting (unless you want to read those too)

This is the one I was talking about:

Legendary Fighter: A man in his thirties or forties who is a great swordsman and a paragon of knighthood. He carries a hugely famous sword on his back. The show is seeking a very impressive swordsman for the role- the best in Europe, for a week of filming fight scenes for a season 6 role. His ethnicity/race isn’t specified, unlike many other roles. 



-- Edited by TormundsWoman on Tuesday 11th of August 2015 06:33:46 PM

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Defender Of The Realm
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http://watchersonthewall.com/the-tower-of-joy-confirmed-and-more-new-details-about-a-key-role-involved/ yippie freakout its on! I mean the whole fight at TOJ!!! freakout if I see Howland Reed on screen before reading him, I might just pop a vein holy crap this is happening.

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Lady Of The Blue Winter Rose
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It is the one thing for next season I allow myself to be spoiled on. I totally feel like Howland sent Meera and Jojen to help out Bran because he is the one character that knows everything about TOJ, at least he knows the most, but, who knows? With Martin, he could throw Ashara at us, too.

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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water.  Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.

 

Defender Of The Realm
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Lyanna, looks like

Spoiler



-- Edited by TormundsWoman on Friday 25th of September 2015 05:32:43 PM

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Grand Maester of the Sausage Manufacture
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ADWD sucks balls

so BlueDragon can see it.

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Cock Merchant
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Lol, Dolan.

I will say, one of the things to which I'm looking most forward in season 6 is The Tower of Joy.

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