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Topic: The behaviour of the White Walkers in episode 4, season 4. Overtaking the books? :)

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Knight
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The behaviour of the White Walkers in episode 4, season 4. Overtaking the books? :)
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So, by now we have all seen the ending of the last episode and it has given a lot of us book fans an incentive for speculating on the behaviour of the WWs, the so-called Night's King and the turning of the baby. Also, how close is this to the books and does it reflect what GRRM's intentions are for the WWs and the impending coming doom for Westeros? I think this is where some aspects of tWoW will be going, especially since Bryan Cogman has said that he can't comment on that scene :)

 

So, what are your thoughts?

 

ww.jpg



-- Edited by Mags Giantsbabe on Wednesday 30th of April 2014 04:38:10 AM

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I think it was BCogs way of keeping the WW prevalent in the show. We never get to see a POV from the WW in the books, and even the scene is shown from the child's perspective. I think BCogs knowing that he was writing an episode at Crasters figured he would just give us a bit more of WW and what happens with the babies. Its possible that the hierarchy of Others HAS been discussed and IS probably a future book point, but that probably all depends on a new character POV or prologue chapter.



-- Edited by Rygar on Wednesday 30th of April 2014 08:00:38 AM

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I would not be surprised if the opening POV of TWOW were a version of this scene.

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In the books, it was hinted that the WWs don't actually eat the babbys just that their "brothers" come for them. I don't think Martin made any mention of organized WWs and might have even disavowed fan theories in an early interview. Maybe he wanted to throw people off, maybe HBO departed from the books, maybe I am imaging things. Only the shadowbaby knows!

How does one raise Ice Babbys anyway?

The WWs never would have risen had King Bobby not slain Azor Asshigh on the Trident.

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What Ry said! Atreyu, "hinted" is not the word you want. It was said black on white. People just don't believe them. What do they know... they are Carster's wives!

Oh, I think the big huge thing spoiler would be if they poop. Yes, I got a fixation, but it is for a reason. This is like a deja vu! I must have typed this so many times back in the day, I feel like trying on a new shoe again!



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TormundsWoman wrote:

What Ry said! Atreyu, "hinted" is not the word you want. It was said black on white.


 This! For me it was clear as day that the babies were not killed per se, but transformed into other WW. We just never saw how that happens, or how their land or leader looks like. I have to say, I'm in love with that whole sequence. I read plenty of comments that the WW are not beautiful enough or that the king looks silly, but I thought everything looked wonderful. The only thing that bugged me a bit was that the baby didn't freeze to death on what was supposed to be a very cold night and a very long road.

Kudos to Cogman and D&D for showing this bit. I think it's widely believed that the TWoW prologue will be set in the Land of always winter, or that we'll get to read about it in some other chapter, but I don't really care anymore, now that I know the show will finish long before GRRM does (if everything stays the same in terms of ratings etc). What I would like to know, either from the books or from HBO, is the connection between the weirwoods and the WW, because I'm sure as hell there is one.



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Ice burns. Maybe the coldness of the WW can "warm up" the babies?  WW igloos.



-- Edited by Rygar on Wednesday 30th of April 2014 02:54:42 PM

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TormundsWoman wrote:

What Ry said! Atreyu, "hinted" is not the word you want. It was said black on white. People just don't believe them. What do they know... they are Carster's wives!


I did think hard about the word I chose. "Hinted" is the one I wanted. Alluded might also work. GM has used the imperfect witness more than a few times in the story; as a reader I just can't trust everything the characters say. HBO confirmed it for me. I wonder if we will find out more about the WWs, the ins and outs of living the life of the chill Nazgul. GM will most likely not fill us in. Because Magic!



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Macha wrote:
 I read plenty of comments that the WW are not beautiful enough or that the king looks silly, but I thought everything looked wonderful.

come oooooooooooooooon... what´s not to like??? Night´s King looks like a good mix between Johnny Rotten and Billy Idol.

See Chuskita?, you do like punk smile



-- Edited by andrea on Wednesday 30th of April 2014 06:11:06 PM

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andrea wrote:

 Night´s King looks like a good mix between Johnny Rotten and Billy Idol.

See Chuskita?, you do like punk smile


 teehee



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andrea wrote:
 what´s not to like??? Night´s King looks like a good mix between Johnny Rotten and Billy Idol.

See Chuskita?, you do like punk smile


 Oh shaddaaaap! We'll talk more when we hear them talk, maybe they sound like a squeaky duck.

 



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Atreyu wrote:
TormundsWoman wrote:

What Ry said! Atreyu, "hinted" is not the word you want. It was said black on white. People just don't believe them. What do they know... they are Carster's wives!


I did think hard about the word I chose. "Hinted" is the one I wanted. Alluded might also work. GM has used the imperfect witness more than a few times in the story; as a reader I just can't trust everything the characters say. HBO confirmed it for me.


But of course, Atreyu! If you thought hard and sill chose to use it (incorrectly I might add, but I won't), sure! It's not like anyone can do anything about it. But this Carster's sons is most assuredly NOT a hint. Three kingsguards outside the ToJ fighting Ned Stark because "they took an oath" - that's a hint; the unrecognizable head of a baby presented by Tywin to Robert as Aegon because it suited him so - that's a hint (did you believe that I wonder...)

Carster's wives telling Sam (ad litteram) " Carster's sons will come and take Gilly's baby boy", and then underline that by spelling it to Tarly so there'll be no mistaking- "they, the baby's brothers" it is ink on paper. Black on white. No hint but clearly stated.

No doubt you can cry imperfect witness. It is your privilege to do that, and it would work for me too actually, if there was at least a POV, myth or story in the whole of ASoIaF to contradict what these women say. If not outright contradict, maybe to cast a shadow of doubt on them or their words and thus make them an unreliable source?! But there is not.

 

They are pretty specific about it too. This is not your "the Others take you/the baby" line, but "they, they boy's brothers, Carster's sons" come and take him. Made me think at the time, these wives at some point must have seen something to be so sure. A transformation first hand maybe, to identify the turn? I mean it's not like they'd recognize the sons once they grew up...

 

 

You are breaking my heart, you know! You would not trust a spelled out explanation because it is not corroborated by a visual (as is in this case with HBO showing it to you), but when actual hints are given, prophecies clues, and what not, you are the first in line to complain about, overwhelming hints that are ambiguous, too many red herrings and stuff! At least you are consistent in seeing the worst in Martin.



-- Edited by TormundsWoman on Thursday 1st of May 2014 10:19:20 AM

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I love Billy Idol ! Hope they do a cover of White (walker) wedding !!!

So The Night Queen wasn't mentioned ... I mean when the Night king was brought down . Did she go back to her kind? Or are these all new ones ? What ? So many questions ... least of which , what would shagging pure ice be like?

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Simmer down, buttercup. If that's your threshold for determining a pure-D fact, you must also (or once did) hold that:

 

Raegar raped Lyanna hundreds of times (according to Robert). I think he probably didn't.

Spoiler

Jon Snow is Ned's son. Because, ya know, EVERYBODY in the books says so.

 

I am sure there are other examples. Haven't read the books in a while.



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Atreyu wrote:

"Simmer down, buttercup."

 

Aww, Atreyu! Who knew you are such a considerate gentleman?! a delicate flower! Addressing my moods (or what you think they are) rather than the word we disagree on using, which was "hinted" (I'm writing it in case you forgot)!

I shall NOT tell you what I think of your sentence, because as you seem to be such an expert on reading me... well, I suspect you know EXACTLY what I do when I'm reading the above. teehee (You simply had to call me buttercup, didn't you?! Can you feel the love?!)

Atreyu wrote:

"If that's your threshold for determining a pure-D fact, you must also (or once did) hold that: 

Raegar raped Lyanna hundreds of times (according to Robert). I think he probably didn't. Jon Snow is Ned's son. Because, ya know, EVERYBODY in the books says so."

 

In the beginning there were was no one to cast a doubt on what Robert said about Lyanna. That changed drastically when reading Ned's POV's regarding his sister. You see, more of a innocent until proven guilty that was my first take of Robert!

Same with Jon Snow's parantage. In the beginning there was no other clue (hint, don't you know?!) to tell me differently, then we got Cat suspecting Ashara and Ned, Ned confirming Wylla and then ToJ: voila = imperfect witnesses. Shadow of doubt was cast! Clues and hints, that's what is all about.

Not the same with the Carster's wives though. Nothing to contradict them. But on second thought, reading what you wrote, I stand corrected:

"Hinted" IS the word YOU are looking for. Carry on!

 



-- Edited by TormundsWoman on Thursday 1st of May 2014 04:38:27 PM

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Well, I am glad you've seen the light. Whenever I approach a work, I do so with much skepticism and rarely take anything at face value. Everything is a hint or evidence to me until it is proven. Sometimes it never is.

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Sorry but Rhapegar rapes.

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Atreyu wrote:

Well, I am glad you've seen the light. 

 Ooooh, Atreyu! What the..?! retract claws, RIGHT NOW!!!!

I DO think you are misusing the term "hint". But should I refer you to the dictionary, would be bush league. I got that on good authority LOL

I do see where you are coming from though now, as you finally bestirred yourself you a coherent explanation. That being said, I shall bypass all your posts until you behave properly. Jeez, you have no shame! NO SHAME I TELL YA!



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Hot fuck! I actually do have a dictionary. It's not the OED, but it does have some dead guy's name on it and "Collegiate" is on the cover, so it might be official or something.

I'll spare you the wall of text and stick to the relevant part.

a slight indication of the existence or nature of something

Synonyms include CLUE and SUGGEST.

I like it. In GURMland, nothing can be taken for granted. Just because someone says something doesn't make it so. Had someone pre-HBO told me the babies were turned into WWs, I woulda told them the text supports that theory. However, muffin, how does Craster's wife know they are his brothers, hmmmmm? Did the WWs have a sit-down with Mr. Craster and lay out the details of adoption? That suggests, or HINTS, that they speak the lingo. Does Craster's harem recognize the faces of the WWs when they come to visit ma and pa? They were taken real young, I think it's unlikely.

How. Do. They. Know? The answer to that, for me, is more interesting than the revelation that the babbys get winterized. I'll go Occam's Razor and say: it's likely Martin didn't think it through.

On an OED note: The Professor and the Madman is a fantastic read.



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Atreyu! What on earth are you talking about. Did I not say I understand where you are coming from?! Still, the "Carster's sons are taking Gilly's babies" IS NOT A CLUE! It is a statement.

False? according to you... YES, until proven otherwise. To me a true one. It is still NOT a clue. I stand by what I said. Plus there's nothing "slight" about it. It is pretty much like a the house dropped on your head. NOT A CLUE. Therefore I say you misuse the word. You know who else does that?! Elio Garcia!

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TormundsWoman wrote:

Atreyu! What on earth are you talking about. Did I not say I understand where you are coming from?! Still, the "Carster's sons are taking Gilly's babies" IS NOT A CLUE! It is a statement.

False? according to you... YES, until proven otherwise. To me a true one. It is still NOT a clue. I stand by what I said. Plus there's nothing "slight" about it. It is pretty much like a the house dropped on your head. NOT A CLUE. Therefore I say you misuse the word. You know who else does that?! Elio Garcia!


 You are absolutely right, Elio does go around accusing people of misusing words. I stand by CLUE.



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Atreyu wrote:


How. Do. They. Know?


 I never asked this myself. Well, I'm not interested in knowing all these details but I if I'd venture a guess it's either a tradition that only Craster and a few others north of the wall remembered or were aware of, or the WWs had a way of communicating with him in some way, OR take it this way, maybe one of the sons had a birthmark on his face and was easy to recognize once Craster or his mother saw him again. 

They've been living alone in that wilderness for probably close to 60 years at least, it's not like they have sooooo many faces to remember.



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Goddess of Tits and Wine
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Did the baby 's eyes change only of did his whole face ?

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we only got to see the eyes, methinks.

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Looked like it was just his eyes to me


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Hmmmmm I'm just thinking , maybe they grow half human before they fully change

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Atreyu wrote:
 You are absolutely right, Elio does go around accusing people of misusing words. I stand by CLUE.

 I see what you did there. If I say you have no shame I would be repeating myself! But I so would.

Oh, the captain of the Titanic also stood by his ship. Then the ship sank.



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TormundsWoman wrote:
Atreyu wrote:
 You are absolutely right, Elio does go around accusing people of misusing words. I stand by CLUE.

 I see what you did there. If I say you have no shame I would be repeating myself! But I so would.

Oh, the captain of the Titanic also stood by his ship. Then the ship sank.


I'm on a defend/detract Atreyu pendulum. Today it's defend. If the captain didn't stand by the sinking ship, he would have been a coward.  



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The baby just looking up at the WW without crying or showing fear was the creepiest part to me. Kudos to baby actor. biggrin

Someone suggested over at the Ice and Fire forums that there is a link between the Night King and this legend that Sam or someone tells of a long gone Lord Commander who set out on a ranging with twelve brothers of the Night's Watch. There are twelve blurry figures standing behind cool Darth Maul dude in the scene. The suggestion is of course that it was the Lord Commando and his crew who got turned themselves, either because of intrusion into their sphere or because of some kind of temptation that each LC is faced with. I like the latter idea. It could be some kind of temptation for power, but power with a dark twist (turning). But this idea is far off.confuse

 

Maybe Jon will be faced with the same temptation later on?



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Mags Giantsbabe wrote:

The baby just looking up at the WW without crying or showing fear was the creepiest part to me. Kudos to baby actor. biggrin


 HA! They must have had the parents close by. And baby was probably sleeping anyway. They CGI-ed those open blue eyes in :P



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